From: David M (davidint@blueyonder.co.uk)
Date: Sun Sep 04 2005 - 22:13:09 BST
Scott
So what's the problem. DQ is one end of the pole,
universal end, the individual is the other end. DQ
is universal so no human being without it, individuals
are singular as well and have to be creative in
situations that are unique to them but impacting the whole
David M
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Roberts" <jse885@cox.net>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Friday, September 02, 2005 12:55 AM
Subject: Re: MD How do conservative values support DQ and the evolution of
SQ?
> Arlo, Ham,
>
> [Ham wrote]
>>At the same time (and at least as important to me) there is a need to
>>establish the role of the "individual" in the Quality thesis. I'm
>>constantly troubled by the assertions made here that individuality is of
>>minor consequence, that conscious awareness arises as a byproduct of
>>Nature's evolution to higher levels of complexity, that the individual
>>self
>>is a meaningless abstraction whose choices and will to act are mere
>>reflections of the "intellectual culture" from which it emerges. This
>>reminds me of Sartre's thoughtless comment that "man is 'unnecessary'
>>...the
>>world exists just as well without him."
>
> Arlo said:
> This type of "crisis" appears to only be a "crisis" for someone who can't
> accept that Randian Individualism has no place in the MOQ. There have been
> several threads on this topic, including one where I tried to demonstrate
> that the symbiotic-dialectic between the "individual" and the "collective"
> does not place precedence of one over the other, but this does not equate
> to the "devaluation of the individual" decried by the Ayn Rand crowd (see
> MD: Intellect as Consciousness, and MD Collective Consciousness).
>
> That said, the reason (perhaps) that no one is rushing in to solve the
> "problem of the individual in the MOQ" is that only Randians see a problem
> here. In other words, its not a crisis, just a thorn in the side of the
> Stand Alone Genius mythologists. :-)
>
> Scott:
> It looks to me like both of you are misrepresenting the other's position
> to
> some extent. Ham characterizes the MOQ (or some proponents) as regarding
> the
> "individual self [as] a meaningless abstraction". Abstraction, maybe, but
> not meaningless. It is (according to the MOQ) an intellectual SPOV, which
> is
> to say it is at a high level of morality. But I agree with Ham that there
> is
> a problem in the MOQ to account for individual responsibility and freedom,
> if choice is allocated to DQ.
>
> Arlo, meanwhile, seems to group all those who have a problem with the MOQ
> treatment of the individual as Randian. I am one of those, and I abhor
> Randian philosophy. I would also say that Arlo's "symbiotic-dialectic
> between the "individual" and the "collective" [that] does not place
> precedence of one over the other" is not MOQian either. Surely, when we
> have
> disagreements we are acknowledging the individual as taking precedence
> over
> the collective insofar as we don't sic the cops on those we disagree with.
> However much our thoughts bubble up within a social milieu, need
> validation
> by peers, etc., they are nevertheless thoughts of an individual. What else
> has thoughts? The whole point of strengthening intellect is to make one's
> own thoughts more autonomous.
>
> - Scott
>
>
>
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