From: David Buchanan (DBuchanan@ClassicalRadio.org)
Date: Sun Mar 02 2003 - 20:38:34 GMT
Platt said:
I've been thinking about DMB's definition of the intellectual level as
"thinking about thinking" In doing so, I suddenly wondered what level I
was on. After all, to think about "thinking about thinking," don't I have to
be at a higher level in order to encompass "thinking about thinking" into
my thoughts?
DMB says:
No. Thinking about thinking is how the Oxford Companion to Philosophy
defines philosophy. I'm only saying this illustrates the difference between
social and intellectual values, not defines intellectual values. This notion
that this then leads to "thinking about thinking about thinking" is silly.
Its just a matter of carefully examining our assumption, of systematically
and critically thinking about our unargued beliefs.
Platt said:
But wait. In writing this I see I'm thinking and questioning "my thinking
about thinking about thinking." Where does this stop? How many
thinking levels must I postulate to end this thinking about thinking about
thinking, etc.? Or do I just chase myself in circles at one level? Logically
DMB's definition of the intellectual level quickly ascends (or descends if
you prefer) to infinite regress.
DMB says:
When I was a boy we had a dog named Suzi who would chase her own tail. Round
and round and round. That was the dumbest dog I ever knew. But seriously, I
don't see the logical necessity of this infinite regression. I don't even
see the implication. It seems you've just invented this non-sense to avoid
the issue. You've thrown a bucket of water on the point and then declared
that its no good because its all wet. Perhaps you're quite serious and
sincere, but it looks like a silly word game to me.
Platt said:
Besides, Wim is correct in pointing out that Pirsig equates the
intellectual level with "consciousness" and 'mind,' a much broader and
inclusive level than DMB allows, one that encompasses all thought
patterns whatever the content thereof, including thinking about thinking.
DMB says:
No. I think Pirsig equates intellect with A CERTAIN KIND of consciousness, a
certain kind of mind. This is the main idea here; that social level thinking
is really thinking, but that intellect represents thinking of a different
kind. All thought is intellectual? So you've said before and I think I know
why conservatives like yourself consistently wish to erase the distinction
between social and intellectual values, between social and intellectual
level thinking. It hurts the cause. In any case, let me ask you then to
explain the distinction. More specifically, how do you explain the
following....
Pirsig:
"The mythos is the social culture and the rhetoric which the culture must
invent before philosophy becomes possible. Most of this old religious talk
is nonsense, of course, but nonsense or not, it is the PARENT of our modern
scientific talk. This 'mythos over logos' thesis agreed with the MOQ's
assertion that intellectual static patterns of quality are built up out of
social static patterns of quality" (Lila chapter 30)
Pirsig:
"One can imagine primitive song-rituals and dance-rituals associated with
certain cosmology stories, myths, which generated the first primitive
religions. From these the first intellectual truths could have derived."
(end of chapter 30)
DMB says:
To say all thought is intellectual, is to say "religious
nonsense","cosmology stories, myths and the first primitive religions" all
belong to the intellectual level. You'd have to conclude that there is no
distinction between the child and the parent, that they are the same thing.
You'd have to conclude that intellect was derived from intellect. You'd have
to conclude that the invention of philosophy was no big deal, marked no
important shift and was only an extension of the same old thing. To construe
all thoughts as intellectual, you'd have to trash the structure of the MOQ.
Thanks.
DMB
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