From: ian glendinning (psybertron@gmail.com)
Date: Wed Oct 05 2005 - 07:59:44 BST
With similar caveats about missing some chunks of this thread, depite
considerable earlier involvement ... can I just say ...
The discretisation of the levels is a red herring - they are discrete
because they are the ontology chosen - their differences are "deemed"
to be significant and useful, that's all. It says nothing that their
dividing lines are fundamental and fixed in any real "out there"
sense, and it says nothing to limit the interactions that can occur
between them.
Ian
On 10/5/05, Matt Kundert <pirsigaffliction@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Case,
>
> I mainly don't read other people's conversations these days, but every once
> in a while, for whatever reason (usually impulse), I take a quick look to
> see what's going on. We had a touch a week ago or something and it looked
> like we were basically saying the same thing there. Reading this post (Oct
> 4th to Bo), I stumbled on more that seems very similar to the kind of thing
> I've been going on about (like in "the cul de sac of philosophy and
> mysticism"). In particular, I like these lines:
>
> "I am saying the very notion that these levels are discrete from one another
> and that they operate independantly from one another is rubbish."
>
> Being as I haven't followed the conversation (and I don't have a lot of time
> to get up to speed), I'm not particularly sure how specific you're being
> with "these levels," but any general attack on Pirsig's notion of
> discreteness I can appreciate.
>
> "Discussions about our internal private worlds are not very productive
> because we have no basis for agreeing or disagreeing."
>
> "My knowledge of what goes on in my wife's head is totally dependant on what
> she tells me about it. Beyond her reports and her behavior I have have no
> way to independently verify the her claims."
>
> I think this is a very important realization about the lack of criteria in
> this area of inquiry.
>
> "Most conflate DQ and Quality. This makes no sense to me at all."
>
> The most important reason for this conflation is that Pirsig makes it. I
> talk about this conflation and the problems it engenders a little bit in my
> review of Anthony's (very old) paper at moq.org.
>
> All that being said, one suggestion I would make is actually of the dropping
> of the inner/outer distinction. You have to use it to a certain extent to
> enunciate the problems you've identified with justification of "inner
> states" and the like (mainly because criticisms such as the ones you're
> making are parasitic on the language your opponent is using), but you
> mentioned to Bo that you take it as a matter of principle, but I think in
> the long run it too will get you into trouble. In the long run, if you take
> the behavioristic route you've been traveling, you'll want to collapse the
> distinction by saying that, once something has become sufficiently complex,
> we are want to ascribe them what we call "inner states," which are defined
> as "states that we are not privy to." This is basically one of the "soft
> distinctions" we pragmatically make to deal with the world. That makes
> saying "I see the inner/outer separation as a matter of principle," as you
> did to Bo, a little misleading. And I have a feeling you'd be perfectly
> content to drop it in this sense.
>
> Matt
>
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