From: ian glendinning (psybertron@gmail.com)
Date: Wed Oct 12 2005 - 11:36:41 BST
David you said two different things here (about different things admittedly)
First you said
It's not permanent and non-changing, the MOQ does change.
Then you said
Quality can be both ultimate and changing at the same time.
For me both Quality and MoQ can be both
"ultimate" - part of a fundamental description, and
"changeable" - evolving, in fact.
Maybe that's what you meant too ?
If you're also saying Quality is "more ultimate" than the MoQ, in the
sense that it is the "thing" on which the MoQ is based, then I'd agree
with you.
MoQ, Quality ? they're just labels, whether they are "ultimate and
changing" or "non-ultimate and changing" the point is what is being
described by the labels. I think Ant's spin-off thread makes the point
well.
The Metaphysics is not itself the whole of reality, it is a
"description" of the whole of reality, which includes it's own self
description - and as good a "description" of Quality as we can ever
expect to get (where else would we get it from ?) - and which
magically, contains the basis of its own evolving description - the
best of all possible words in my book (and pragmatic too).
This stuff would be much better with a picture - I'm working on one.
(Paul made a good analogy with a page, a diagram on the page, and the
thing described by the diagram - whilst at many levels of discussion
they can be effectively the same thing, they are distinctly different.
Whilst we seem agreed that the recursive self-description is a good
thing, we seem to keep tripping up over it as a linguistic problem.)
Bo ?
Regards
Ian
On 10/12/05, David Harding <davidharding@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
> Bo said:
>
> > Great insights Mike! This is exactly how I see MOQ's impact on
> > the earlier SOM reality. You and I obviously understand our
> > respective motives to distance the MOQ from the fourth level.
>
> Mark said:
>
> > Just as the inorganic level submits to a higher purpose by allowing
> > exceptions to the static law of entropy, just as the biological level
> > submits to a higher purpose by allowing exceptions to the static law
> > of "might makes right", just as the social level submits to a higher
> > purpose by allowing exceptions to the static law of authority, so the
> > logical level submits to a higher purpose by allowing exceptions to
> > the static law of *definition*. The pattern is clear to see, is it
> > not? So why shouldn't the MOQ stand above the fourth level?
>
> Mark and Bo,
>
> Why shouldn't it? Because it doesn't. It's not permanent and non-changing, the MOQ does change. You've just changed it. See how it changes?
>
> > Bo continued:
> >
> > Now, I don't postulate a 5th. level, the MOQ's intellectual
> > framework is intellectual and will remain so (by the same token
> > as biology's building block (carbon) remains inorganic, but it has
> > formed a Quality reality of which intellect is a sub-set. I still
> > search for the ultimate formulation here.
>
> I've got 'the ultimate formulation' for you. Quality. Quality just like reality has this unique, one of a kind, perfect for any metaphysics, ability where it can be both ultimate and changing at the same time. Ultimate, to me is just another description of quality. The best description we have at any one time is the ultimate description. Of course like quality, the ultimate can always be replaced by something better. Who's not to like this?
>
> In other words, either you agree with me, or your looking for something better ;)
>
> -David.
>
>
>
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