From: Mr. Spears (dspears@toucansurf.net)
Date: Sat Oct 15 2005 - 17:40:07 BST
do you?
On 13 Oct 2005, at 16:13, Platt Holden wrote:
>
>> [Arlo]
>> I use "conservative" and "liberal" when I am in dialogue with Platt.
>> He's
>> made it clear those are his poles, and he's stickin' to 'em. I tried
>> using
>> scarequotes with them, to show I was using them in a discordant
>> manner.
>>
>> But I think its important to note that its not that I don't "get" a
>> "leftist" and "rightist" political meter, its the absolute
>> dichotomization
>> of "All Good" and "All Evil" that these labels, and those that employ
>> them,
>> bring.
>
> Apparently Arlo doesn't see that his anti-dichotomy stance creates an
> equally severe dichotomy -- those in favor and those against
> dichotomies.
> Equally, his condemnation of party lines is itself a party line --
> those
> who like to refer to themselves as independents.
>
>> My point is that
>> the political dialogue is, and *should be* much broader than this
>> simple
>> dichotomy, and people need to realize that maybe (as Khaled eloquently
>> points out) "both" parties are right (or conversely, both parties may
>> be
>> wrong), and to stop this innane "my party all good, yours all evil"
>> idiocy.
>
> Although in Arlo's mind, his independent Marxist "party" is good, while
> the conservative and liberal parties are evil.
>
>> I don't think you need to be "apolitical", Erin. I think a good
>> solution is
>> to use the right-left meter to apply to beliefs, not to people. And
>> to find
>> a way to look across the spectrum for solutions, and mix/match/select
>> based
>> on Quality, not on "my team must defeat the evil so-and-so's". And to
>> remember that on the big Left-Right meter, todays "liberals" and
>> "conservatives" are both about 1mm apart somewhere just right of
>> center.
>
> On the contrary, the policies espoused by liberals and conservatives
> are
> miles apart. Social Security reform and education vouchers are just two
> examples.
>
>> To clarify futher, I'm not saying "I" am suffering attacks from the
>> left
>> and right, I said that both the liberals and conservatives use fear
>> tactics
>> to distract popular dialogue away from examination of the system.
>> This is
>> what I mean, and MSH had argued much earlier, that both conservatives
>> and
>> liberals are really not that different. Both are pawns to wealth and
>> power
>> interests. Both battle each other, but only to secure power for
>> itself, not
>> really to instigate change or solutions. We are swept up in the "go
>> team!"
>> rhetoric and lose sight of the critical dialogue.
>
> Arlo doesn't think he gets "swept up" in rhetoric but is somehow able
> to
> rise above it all to examine issues "critically." The hidden premise is
> that the rest of us are stupid peons, incapable of attaining his lofty
> "critical" perch.
>
>> Marx, as I've said, would abhor modern "liberals" as vehemently as
>> he'd
>> abhor modern "conservatives". When Platt calls welfare "Marxist" it is
>> irritatingly funny. Welfare is not a solution to poverty, Marx would
>> say,
>> merely a capitalist inspired band-aid to keep the working class
>> distracted
>> and placated. What Marx would say is "abolish welfare", abolish social
>> security, abolish food stamps, minimum wage, unemployment, workers
>> compensation, mandatory health care for full time employees, work
>> week and
>> age restrictions to labor, and all those programs, and then we'd be
>> very
>> shortly on the road to revolution, when the majority would truly see
>> their
>> place in the world without the social trinkets thrown at their feet
>> by both
>> "liberals" and "conservatives".
>
> Yes, and in the revolution Marx promises to abolish private property.
> All
> power is granted to the "Giant, unforgettably described by Pirsig:
>
> "Later he saw there was: this Giant. People look upon the social
> patterns
> of the Giant in the same way cows and horses look upon a farmer;
> different
> from themselves, incomprehensible, but benevolent and appealing. Yet
> the
> social pattern of the city devours their lives for its own purposes
> just
> as surely as farmers devour the flesh of farm animals. A higher
> organism
> is feeding upon a lower one and accomplishing more by doing so than the
> lower organism can accomplish alone." (Lila, 17)
>
> Maybe Arlo finds the social patterns of the Giant appealing, but to me
> they mean one thing -- you guessed it -- gulags, as was demonstrated
> when
> intellect put the Giant's patterns into practice on a grand scale.
>
> Platt
>
>
>
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