From: Arlo J. Bensinger (ajb102@psu.edu)
Date: Sun Oct 16 2005 - 01:05:56 BST
[Platt]
Well, I thought you considered those concerned with their own power to be
evil. Nor do I see anything you've written above to convince me that you
think liberals and/or conservatives are in any way good.
[Arlo]
Ah, I think I see the source of your confusion. I think that the majority of
self-professed liberals and conservatives (people) are in it for their power. I
think that, as politicians, they distort and manipulate the rhetoric to serve
to keep any focus away from critical inquiry, and focused on the absurd, little
"football game" of conservatives v. liberals.
Now, as for the party ideologies (liberalism and conservatism), I think neither
is "evil", and I think both offer answers worth consideration and debate. But,
they are neither the "end all" of solution-perspectives, nor are they really
very different. The people who manipulate the dialogue to set these two
platforms up as polar and sole solutions are the ones who should be challenged.
[Arlo previously]
They only Voice of Righteousness is the conservative party voice, on every
issue, on every topic. Is that what you are saying?
[Platt]
No. But given the choice between the two, I'll take the conservatives.
After all, in the voting booth (which I assume you are in favor of) one
cannot select from a whole bunch of nuanced position. It's either up or
down, yes or no. (Apologies to Ian for this democratic dichotomy.)
[Arlo]
And we should be challenging that! That's part of my whole point!! Rather than
just buying into the Party v. Party farce.
[Arlo previously]
Tell me, Platt, how was it that Pirsig was able to see this malady and no
one else was. Hmmmmm???
[Platt]
Beats me. As I've said, I think Pirsig in this case painted with too broad
a brush. Nor do I think he really believes a free market is a "malady." He
said just the opposite in Lila.
[Arlo]
Never said he believes the free market to be a malady. What I said was that he
saw a malady that many were unable to see. And he was able to offer a solution,
an expansion of the dialogue to account for Quality.
Tell me, do you think the crisis of ZMM was exagerrated? If so, then why would
we really need a new metaphysical orientation? If things were pretty much okay
with production and consumption (as opposed to what Pirsig saw), why should you
want to change anything?
Pirsig, as I've said, may believe in the free market, but he certainly doesn't
believe that there is nothing to be served by critically approaching problems
and offering an expanded dialogue to counter the maladies that continue to
exist and dominate Western thinking.
You yourself have admitted that the MOQ has hardly been "adopted" by any real
majority. Which must mean that the SOMist mindsets of production, consumption,
and approach to life must still be in effect. Pirsig was very critical of this,
and yet you seem to favor everything staying just as it is. If you truly
believe Pirsig, that this approach has created much malady in the West, then
why do you argue so vehemently for stasis? Or, if you think everything's been
fine all along, why do we need Pirsig?
[Arlo previously]
Why do you think NYC was his prime examplar of the Giant? Why not choose Moscow?
Or Leningrad?
[Platt]
Because in the same chapter Pirsig goes on to explain how the Giant is
held at bay in the West by the Dynamic free market.
[Arlo]
He did no such thing. NYC was the great giant, hardly "held at bay" by a free
market. Indeed, NYC, a dynamic free market, was the Great Giant of the story.
You can't escape that. The Giant is not a political phenomena, it exists
independantly of this. NYC is the largest Giant because it is the most complex,
populated, interwoven social-level pattern Pirsig could think of.
[Platt]
That's because you don't seem to see the connection between capitalism,
Dynamic Quality and Intellectual Quality, e.g., freedom of speech, freedom
of the press, freedom to own property, etc.
[Arlo]
What you mean to say is that I don't reduce everything to a marketplace. That I
place a higher value on some things, like the health of individuals, than on
turning everything into a market commodity, to be offered only to those with
capital. Some things you should not have to "buy". Some things we should all
agree everyone should have. Running water, access to information, heat, food,
medicine, are just of few of the things I don't think should only be accessible
by "wealth".
[Platt]
If you are saying that all those programs ought to be abolished and that
Marx's idea to abolish private property should also be dropped, then I'm
with you. So long as I can keep what's mine, like my brushes and paints,
and you can can keep what's yours, like your motorcycle, I'd be happy.
[Arlo]
But that's the rub, ain't it? Take all those things away (labor protections,
minimum wage, health care, unemployment, age-labor laws, overtime, workers'
compensation...), take all these away and what do you really think would
happen? Turn back the clock to 1890 (which is what you'd be doing, in effect),
turn the clock back and see, Platt. Make medical care only available to those
with money. Abolish social programs to feed and shelter the poor, or financial
assistance programs for the needy. Let the revolution roll!!
[Platt]
Whatever makes you think there would be a revolution if those welfare
programs you mentioned were phased out, especially if the money wasted on
them was returned to the citizens who are forced to pay for them?
[Arlo]
I dunno. History? But let's not quibble hypotheticals, Platt. I'm with you on
this. Let's eliminate all those "welfare" programs. Let's not "waste money" on
medical care for Joe Schmo who was injured by a falling crate at work. If he's
infirmed, and cant' work, to hell with him. And let's not waste money on
helping a single mom (who we convinced not to have an abortion) actually feed
her baby, or get that baby doctor's care. If she's too poor to afford it, the
kid should just be weeded out of the herd anyways. Charles Dickens here we
come!
Viva l' revolution!
Arlo
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