From: mark maxwell (laughingpines@yahoo.co.uk)
Date: Wed Nov 16 2005 - 21:12:41 GMT
Skutvik:
SOM (which emerged as told in ZMM) is identical to the
4th level.
Mark:
This statement has no support in ZMM.
If it has support, Skutvik may provide it, but after 8
years it seems unlikely that he will.
The 4th level of the Metaphysics of Quality is the
Intellectual level. The Intellectual level is as
follows:
"...static intellectual patterns... ...theology,
science, philosophy, mathematics." (Pirsig, 1995a,
p.14)
Intellectual values include truth, justice, freedom,
democracy and trial by jury. Both the subject-object
metaphysics and the MOQ are patterns lying entirely
within the intellectual level of evolution. Other
patterns in the same level are Euclidian and Riemann
geometry, the branches of scientific knowledge, and
the written laws. (Pirsig, 1998b)
This does not accord with Skutvik's exceptionally
unusual statement that, "SOM (which emerged as told in
ZMM) is identical to the 4th level."
Skutvik:
SOM goes as far as is necessary to meet the
requirements for the 4th. level.
Mark:
Truth, free thinking, and sceptical enquiery
challenging soically sanctioned authority are the
requirements of intellectual patterns. As SOM may also
be sanctioned by social patterns it certainly does not
meet anything like the requirements for intellectual
endeavour.
The consequences of suggesting that SOM meets the
requirements for the 4th level include as follows:
1. A complete rejection of Eatsern Intellectual
tradition which is the equal of that which developed
in the West. (See B,K, Matilal's, Perception: An Essay
In Classical Indian theories of knowledge. Clarendon
paperbacks. 1991.
2. The further assertion that the Western intellectual
tradition is morally superior.
3. A rejection that mathematics and geometry are
intellectual patterns.
Skutvik:
"quality reality" is what transcends the 4th. level
and from where the level system is seen.
Mark:
The question is not of a quality reality transcending
anything as that of a superior intellectual pattern
transcending an inferior intellectual pattern in a
similar sense to the intellectual pattern known as
reletivity replacing the inferior intellectual pattern
known as Newtonian gravitation.
What a tit.
Skutvik:
Everyone agree that SOM is a 4th. level pattern,
Mark:
True.
Skutvik:
thus it cannot "expand" to contain the MOQ...
Mark:
False. The MOQ is also an intellectual pattern.
SOM and the MOQ are at the same level. (see above
quote)
Skutvik is confused here.
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