From: ian glendinning (psybertron@gmail.com)
Date: Mon Nov 28 2005 - 12:09:43 GMT
Hi DM,
Yes, I think that's pretty clear.
I like your phrase "SQ becomes object-like" - kinda sums it up.
It adds to the debate about subjectivity in layers 3 and 4 - the SPQ
in these layers become object-like subjects, though no doubt Scott and
Bo would accuse us of trying to force MoQ into an S/O world view.
Ian
On 11/27/05, David M <davidint@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> Guys
>
> The hot stove thing. Is it not obvious that reflex
> actions are a form of SQ, i.e. something DQ laid down
> along time ago about the value-quality of hot surfaces coming
> into contact with merely warm bottoms? The whole point
> of SQ is that it becomes object-like, unconscious, mechanistic,
> and that the oldest SQ is what we refer to as matter. So that
> what is now matter-form is the SQ that DQ laid down longest ago
> for the quality-value-reasons that were available at that level/time.
> SQ is what we might call fixed-values or values-frozen into matter
> or behaviour. Some SQ of course can be changed by becoming open
> to DQ and quality choices once again.
>
> DM
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Platt Holden" <pholden@sc.rr.com>
> To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>; <owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2005 2:42 PM
> Subject: RE: MD Two Theses in the MOQ
>
>
> > Paul:
> >
> > Thanks for explaining your position on some of the questions I asked. It
> > appears our differences boil down to a single key idea that you set up as
> > follows:
> >
> >> I think judgement implies an element of reflection or consideration . . .
> >
> > Contrast this to Pirsig's description of knowing the value of a situation
> > without any reflection or consideration:
> >
> > "Any person of any philosophic persuasion who sits on a hot stove will
> > verify without any intellectual argument whatsoever that he is in an
> > undeniably low-quality situation: that the value of his predicament is
> > negative. This low quality is not just a vague, woolly-headed, crypto-
> > religious, metaphysical abstraction. It is an experience: It is not a
> > judgment about an experience. It is not a description of experience. The
> > value itself is an experience." (Lila, 5)
> >
> > Note particularly Pirsig's caution, "It is not a judgment about an
> > experience." Yet, the individual "knows" (without judging) that the
> > situation is low quality.
> >
> > Here then is the crux of my confusion. It seems I can know I'm having a
> > low quality experience without making a value judgment, i.e., I'm able to
> > instantly evaluate a situation without thinking.
> > .
> > To put it another way, art critic Clement Greenberg describes the esthetic
> > experience: "Esthetic enjoyments are immediate, intuitive, undeliberate
> > and involuntary leaving not room for conscious application of standards,
> > criteria, rules or precepts."
> >
> > I've always felt that Greenberg and Pirsig were describing the same
> > phenomenon.
> >
> >> Paul: I think your confusion comes from conflating Dynamic 'value' with
> >> static 'value judgements'.
> >
> > Indeed, that may be the problem. Do you see experiencing Dynamic 'value'
> > the same as Greenberg describes the aesthetic experience?
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > Platt
> >
> >
> >
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>
>
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