From: Elizaphanian (elizaphanian@tiscali.co.uk)
Date: Wed Mar 12 2003 - 09:04:34 GMT
Hi Wim,
I agree almost completely. I don't think the conventional understanding (ie
Pirsig's) of the division between social and intellectual levels stands up
to sustained scrutiny. I like your definition of the social level very much
(unconscious copying of behaviour); on the fourth level, I still like my
'eudaimonic' or 'individualistic' conception. But that latter argument is
exhausted for a while.
I say 'almost' because I doubt it is possible to educate children in 'logos'
without also educating them in a 'mythos' - even if the mythos is as
impoverished as the Modernist drama of salvation by scientific reasoning. We
tell our children stories; we 'show' them stories - and that is the mythos
on which their subsequent thinking is based, I would say. But I'm only just
starting down that road in practice, so I could be wrong.
Sam
"Bush's speechwriters may be able to help him talk the talk, but does he
kneel the kneel?" (Alex Pennell)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wim Nusselder" <wim.nusselder@antenna.nl>
To: "MD" <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2003 9:41 PM
Subject: Re: MD Systematic about the Sophists (Kingsley)
> Dear Sam,
>
> You wrote 11 Mar 2003 19:29:12 -0000 that Kingsley's 'book is a project
> aimed at showing the profound continuities between Pythagorean (Orphic)
> magic, myths and ritual, as best represented in the figure of the
> pre-Socratic philosopher Empedocles, and Plato's perspective, especially
as
> set out in the Phaedo.'
>
> That supports my idea that the birth of the intellectual level should not
be
> situated there and then. The gradual development from logos out of mythos
is
> simply a development within the intellectual level. The mythos should not
be
> identified with social patterns of values (even if Pirsig seems to do so)
> and the logos not with (all) intellectual patterns of values. They are
just
> lower quality respectively higher quality intellectual patterns of value.
>
> There is another reason why the development of logos out of mythos should
> not be equated with a development of the intellectual level out of the
> social level:
> In the MoQ intellectual patterns of value cannot 'grow on top of'
biological
> patterns of value. Without social patterns of value in between, mind
cannot
> grow from (even animate) matter. Although historically logos was derived
> from mythos, we can now educate our children to think logically without
> having to teach them to think mythically. So myths etc. (or mythical
> thinking) cannot be the social level which the MoQ needs.
>
> We can only teach our children to think in the way our society needs after
> first making them behave however. Until they reach a certain age (around 7
> years old?) it is no use telling children to do something because of this
or
> that reason. They will do what you tell them if you tell them emphatically
> enough, whatever the reasons you give, and if you behave according to what
> you say. Properly motivating what they do is something they only learn
> gradually in the course of say another 7 years. Only then they can be said
> to really participate in intellectual patterns of value, by consciously
> acting according to ideas and being susceptible to persuasion (instead of
> the 'blackmailing' or at least bargaining which you need at an earlier age
> to make them do something which they really don't want). This
> behaving-ourselves-because-of-social-pressures (as distinguished from
> acting-for-conscious-reasons) is the social level the MoQ needs.
>
> With friendly greetings,
>
> Wim
>
>
>
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