From: Platt Holden (pholden@sc.rr.com)
Date: Thu May 08 2003 - 13:50:36 BST
Steve:
> Platt:
> > Pirsig makes it clear that Quality is the same as morality. At
> > the end of Chap. 7 in Lila he writes:
> >
> > "Because Quality is morality. Make no mistake about it. They're
> > identical."
> >
> > But, I have no problem with adding "Morality" as well as "Value" if you
> > think they make the list more clear and complete.
>
> About the list Platt proposed refer to the same thing, Sam asked, "What is
> the context?" Platt answered, "The context is the MOQ."
>
> Steve:
> I'm not sure if Platt sees it in the same way I do, but I have begun to see
> the MOQ as indeed suggesting a context.
>
> The MOQ is the context-less context. It is looking at Quality from the
> outside. Quality from the outside looks just like morality as Pirsig said,
> "They're identical." But morality is not equal to Experience. Morality is
> what Quality *looks* like. It is seen from point of view rather than
> experienced. The MOQ context divorces Quality and Experience.
> Quality=Experience is the view from within only, and it only applies to the
> ZAMM Quality insight not to the MOQ of Lila.
Pirsig writes in Lila:
"It says that values are not outside of the experience that logical
positivism limits itself to. They are the essence of this experience.
Values are more empirical, in fact, than subjects or objects."(5)
This means to me that values, morality are "the view from within."
> Lila's version of the MOQ is about a detached view of Quality. It sees
> patterns of value from some outside point of view which ZAMM's Quality
> insight says does not exist. Since Reality = Experience there is no
> detached view.
>
> It was extremely fruitful to work with this "context without a point of
> view." It has incredible explanatory power relative to SOM. My point is
> not to put down the MOQ, but to distinguish the Quality insight of ZAMM and
> the MOQ. They are not the same. They apply to different contexts. One
> internal, the other external.
No argument that the written MoQ is a derivative to intellect of Pirsig's
primary experience, if that's your point, whereas in ZAMM direct
experience of Quality is artistically suggested..
> These all work from an internal view. They refer to ZAMM's Quality
> insight: Reality =Quality =Experience="I" or Self=Now= Awareness=
> Consciousness =Apprehension=Existence=The Tao = value
>
> These are viewed from outside, not experienced, but they still retain a
> vision of Reality as Quality acquired through the Quality insight. They
> refer to Lila's MOQ: Reality = Quality = morality=patterns of value =
> values = The Tao rather than the substances, forces, probabilistic
> tendencies, and causes of SOM.
As we read Lila and experience Pirsig's intellectual patterns, the view is
always inside. Meanings are "inside" and are experiential territory as
"real" as "external" objects.
> Note to anyone thinking of responding to my MD MOQ post: In this post I
> made a distinction that I should have made more clear in that post between
> ZAMM's MOQ (which I've started calling the Quality insight) and Lila's MOQ
> that I would like you to try to read into the MD MOQ post.
The distinction I would make between ZAMM and Lila is that the former
is more art, the latter more intellectual. Both convey the same
"message" in different contexts.
Platt
> Steve
>
>
>
>
>
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