From: Steve Peterson (peterson.steve@verizon.net)
Date: Sun Jun 08 2003 - 22:18:31 BST
Hi Wim, Scott, all,
Steve
> 'It seems that the question, "do we have free will" needs to be unasked
> within the MOQ context. Or at least reworked.
> In the MOQ, a sense of free will is an intellectual pattern of value. It
> can be recognized whenever we think, "I did it because..." a phrase which is
> the basis of all intellectual patterns of value since they are latched as
> copied rationales'.
>
Scott gave 4 Jun 2003 19:22:15 -0600 as alternative reworking of the
question:
> 'I suggest replacing the phrase "free will" with "creativity". And only
> Quality is creative. We are just local passageways for creativity to be
> creative. We make a mistake by trying to own it, which leads us to wonder
> how much "freedom" we have. One can just as well say we have none or we have
> all. The error is to think that there is some "thing" called "me" that "has"
> choices. The choices exist in their own right.'
Similar thought from Pirsig...
Annotation 29 from LC p506:
"The MOQ, as I understand it, denies the existence of a "self" that is
independent of inorganic, biological, social, or intellectual patterns.
There is no "self" that contains these patterns. These patterns contain the
self. This denial agrees with both religious mysticism and scientific
knowledge. In Zen, there is reference to "big self" and "small self."
Small self is the patterns. Big Self is Dynamic Quality."
Wim said:
> I prefer Scott's reworking to Steve's.
> To the extent that one's behavior follows intellectual patterns of value
> (i.e. can be redescribed as motivated action) it is still determined even
> though from a social level perspective (compared with habitual, unthinking
> behavior) it is free (from social patterns of value).
Steve:
I agree that human behavior is determined, the question of free will is
'what is it determined by?' You seem to be saying that your behavior is
determined by an intellectual pattern of value. The thing is, you *are* the
intellectual pattern of value ("Small self is the patterns."). So your
behavior is determined by you.
As an aside, I noted that Pirsig supports the idea of extending the idea of
awareness to all levels:
LC p508 ³Šinorganic objects experience events but do not respond to them
biologically, socially, or intellectually. They react to these experiences
inorganically, according to the laws of physics.²
He then extends free will to all levels as well...
LC annotation 75
³Traditionally this is the meaning of free will [referring to applying the
term only to self-conscious beings]. But the MOQ can argue that free will
exists at all levels with increasing freedom to make choices as one ascends
the levels. At the lowest inorganic level, the freedom, the freedom is so
small that it can be said that nature follows laws, but the quantum theory
shows that within the laws the freedom is still there.²
Thanks,
Steve
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