From: Scott R (jse885@spinn.net)
Date: Sun Jun 15 2003 - 02:00:53 BST
Sam, Rick, DMB, ...
In this vein, that is, the emergence of amor and the Catholic Church's
reaction, I believe it was just about this time that the Church started
requiring celibacy among its clergy (it was encouraged before, but not
required). I remember reading somewhere, but forget where, that the Church
was not particularly concerned with the clergy having sex, but did get
concerned at the idea of them being in love with a particular person.
Any corrections or reinterpretations on this are welcome.
- Scott
> Sam said:
> BTW the quotes from Campbell were depressing, and display a mind-numbing
> conformity to conventional
> thinking. To say (of personal love) that "That's completely contrary to
> everything the Church stood
> for. It's a personal, individual experience, and I think it's the
essential
> thing that's great
> about the West and that makes it different from all other traditions I
know"
> simply displays
> astonishing historical ignorance. Where does he think the language for the
> troubadour tradition came
> from, if not from the 'Song of Solomon' and all the contemporaneous
> commentaries on it? Campbell
> seems blithely unaware that Bernard of Clairvaux was the generation before
> Chretien de Troyes, and
> that the troubadours adapted religious language for their purposes in just
> the same way that modern
> pop songs are derived from religious singing. (If you're interested, see
> 'The discovery of the
> individual, 1050 - 1200", by Colin Morris). Grrrr!!
>
> dmb says:
> I don't think you can rightly accuse Campbell of ignorance without really
> knowing what he's got to say on the topic. Please trutst me on this. The
> quotes from Rick are just a small sample of a very large thing. He
connects
> Christianity to these legends in lots of different ways. Nearly half of
The
> Masks of God, which is two or three thousand pages of material in a four
> volume set reccomended by Pirsig, is devoted to unpacking various versions
> of these romantic legends. The broken hearted musician/lover can be seen
in
> David and Orpheus, in Paul, in the mystics, in Christ and the Grail
legends,
> the legends of abelard and tristan as well as the troubadours and
countless
> other permutations. The thing you object to and find "a mind-numbing
> conformity to conventional thinking" is only what the troubadours
themselves
> were saying! I can understand why a priest would feel uncomfortable with
> such a thing, but I hardly think you can blame the messenger here. The
clash
> between the church and these lovers can be seen plainly by anyone who
looks.
> (Amor is Roma backwards.) I mean, sometimes conventional views are very
well
> founded, you know?
>
> More later,
> DMB
>
> P.S. Wasn't the Church of England founded to escape Rome's authority over
> Henry's 8th marriage? :-)
>
>
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