From: Valence (valence10@hotmail.com)
Date: Wed Jul 02 2003 - 00:58:28 BST
Hey Sam,
> > RICK
> > Inorganic, Biological, Social, Personal? I guess that would make the
> > choosing unit for the 4th level "personality"?
S
> I would rather put 'character' than 'personality' - I think the latter is
more fluid and contains
> different MoQ levels; whereas I think the former is focussing in on the
static patterns (could be of
> both 3 and 4 level), ie the virtues.
R
Fair enough.
> > RICK
> > It's funny how you can't imagine a 4th level individual having that much
> > respect for society, but you didn't mention disbelieving a 4th level
> > individual would have that much respect for biology. I wonder if this
is
> > related to the 'alliance' thing.
S
> How the different levels interact is what I'm thinking about at the
moment, in this context, ie how
> far a "fourth level person" (a coherent idea?) can function with or
without the wider society and be
> healthy.
R
Hmm... Could this be leading to a dichotomy based on concepts of "biological
health", "sociological health" and "4th level health"? Aristotle made such
a distinction using the terms "physical health" "social health" and
"emotional health".
S
> This notion of 'discrete conflict' would benefit from a little teasing
out. Firstly, my point about
> the 'satisfaction' of the levels is quite a simple one - the existence of
higher levels is dependent
> upon the existence of the lower levels. Just as human intelligence can
only be sustained by physical
> and biological processes, so too (I would say) can the higher loves only
be sustained when the
> earlier ones are 'satisfied' (although I'll raise a quibble about that in
a mo). So, unless your
> sexual drives find an outlet, you won't have the awareness to feel
compassion for others; unless you
> have the awareness to feel compassion for people you won't be able to love
a particular individual.
> My quibble is that I know a number of celibates who have highly developed
compassion....
R
Sounds good to me so far. As for the compassionate celibates, if the theory
is right, they would have to have found an alternative outlet for those
biological drives. Any idea what it might be?
S
> Now, the thing about conflict also makes sense to me. Your sexual
attraction to another person can
> override feelings of compassion for them, and this is low Quality (it's
called using someone).
R
And called "rape" at its most extreme.
S
> Similarly, your compassion for someone can override the specific love
required at the fourth level
> (think of the hackneyed example of a well-meaning parent saying 'you've
got to go to college' and
> the teenage tearaway saying 'you don't understand *me*!!'). Similarly, in
a romantic relationship,
> it might mean a general benevolence rather than a specific attachment to
the individual. That makes
> sense to me (although it requires a lot of fleshing out).
R
Your 'romantic' example reminds me of the so-called "Florence Nightingale
Complex" which describes cases in which caretakers fall 'in love' with their
patients.
>
> > RICK
> > Maybe. I think the MoQ would suggest that patterns "love" because it's
good
> > for them in some ultimate sense. That is, I think that love just comes
with
> > the territory. Biological patterns value lust because it improves the
odds
> > of reproduction. Social patterns value compassion because it improves
the
> > odds of cooperation. Individuals value romantic love because... well,
I'm
> > not pretentious enough to disrespect 1000 years of poets and artists by
> > trying to answer this one on the fly. "Why do they fall in love?" I'm
not
> > entirely sure why... but I'm pretty sure it somehow makes stronger,
> > healthier individuals.
S
> Individuals value personal love because.... it is a high Quality activity.
R
But what's high-quality about it? What "greater Goods" value the
precondition of personal love?
take care
rick
In laying hands upon the sacred ark of absolute permanency, in treating the
forms that had been regarded as types of fixity and perfection as
originating and passing away, the Origin of Species introduced a mode of
thinking that in the end was bound to transform the logic of knowledge, and
hence the treatment of morals, politics, and religion. - John Dewey
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