From: johnny moral (johnnymoral@hotmail.com)
Date: Wed Jul 02 2003 - 19:42:24 BST
Hi Platt,
>P:
> > >The Giant, a social pattern, can't respond to DQ. Pirsig says only an
> > >individual human being can do that.
>
>J:
> > But the giant shapes humans to respond to DQ on its behalf. There's >
>really
> > no such a thing as an "individual human", we are not islands.
>
>In one sense, yes. But if there is no such thing as an individual human,
>I'm sure you'll be glad to pay my income taxes for me.
ha. You see my point though? The way an individual taxpayer reponds to DQ
is the way the world has shaped him to respond. He's not floating in a
vacuum by himself, he's a product of the culture, of the Giant. The Giant
has much more influence over people now than social patterns ever did.
There were no social patterns to divorce until the Giant started suggesting
it.
> >You agree
> > that social and intellectual patterns exist and evolve, right? How do
>you
> > explain their evolution and continued existence if they aren't
>responding
> > to DQ?
>
>Individual human beings respond to DQ. If enough individuals agree with
>the response, it may become institutionalized as a social pattern, like in
>the story of the brujo and the Zuni tribe in Lila.
Well, most social and intellectual patterns just naturally take hold, no one
person was the first that thought of it, and those "enough individuals"
didn't have to all see it and agree, they just came to the same idea. Like
if Edison hadn't invented the light bulb, some one else would have (oh,
someone else did! an African-American inventor, right?). The patterns were
heading for that conglomeration, there was no stopping them. Not to take
anything away from the inventor's genius, or the Brujo's sweet singing
voice.
>Sorry, I don't see. There's been a huge human cost as the result of FDA
>delays in allowing life saving drugs from coming to market.
And stopping life-taking scams from coming to market. Remember snake-oil
salesmen? Everyone is gonna die, the crime is to make that happen sooner on
purpose or through gross negligence. There is no crime in not coming up
with a cure someone fast enough. People will be very selfish, naturally,
about wanting to stay alive (I would be too), but there are other concerns.
If they want to invent their own cure, they are most welcome to. But a big
drug comapany (or small) can't exploit their (irrational and modern) desire
to be immortal by putting unsafe drugs on the market. People should be
grateful they made it as far as they did, long life is not a right, it is a
blessing.
> > You think capitalism is opposed to liberal, left-wing politics? That's
> > what makes it such a joke, Republicans know that they get rich when
>Murphy
> > Brown destroys the familiy.
>
>Sounds like you've fallen for Hillary's vast right-wing conspiracy. Do you
>seriously believe capitalists promote socialism for some sort of rebound
>effect?
Not socialism, individualism. Left-wing liberal individualism.
> > Our laws, moral strength, and convictions protect us from the giant's
> > appetite. We have to value family over economic growth.
>
>I don't see that families values and economic growth as incompatible. In
>fact, quite the opposite.
Opposite? A family has one wage earner, a sand-box i the back yard, clothes
hanging from a clothesline. Individuals and divorced people buy more stuff,
drive more, put kids in day care, give them nintendos, etc. The US's
dominance over Muslim countries is entirely because our women insisted (at
the hypnotic suggestion of the Giant) on working for global dominance
instead of raising families.
> > So now the Giant is the government? I don't think so. You still
>haven't
> > explained why it was loudest in NYC, not Washington DC, not Tehran.
>
>The Giant gets its power from government as well as from fame and fortune
>(taxes). Ever hear of eminent domain? As for "loudest," check Chap. 17 of
>Lila. The symbol for NYC is the ticker tape--capitalism, free markets.
Don't have Lila with me. Does he not say NYC is where the Giant is loudest?
When he's standing on the balcony? I'm gonna start a thread to get some
more opinoins on what is the Giant, exactly, cause you and I are butting
heads.
>P:
> > >I also wonder what an inorganic or a biological idea is
> > >like. Can you give some examples?
>
>J:
> > A hydrogen atom making the quality decision to bond with another, an
>amoeba
> > having the idea to move away from a drop of acid.
>
>Now we have someone saying intellect is also part of the inorganic and
>biological levels. It will be interesting to see who, if anyone, besides
>you,
>thinks that's a good idea. I think it's bogus.
I didn't say they were intellectual ideas, just ideas. There was no
symbolic manipulation, that's where the distance from quality gets
introduced, that's where the bogusness comes in. Ideas at the lowest levels
are direct experiences of quality, and as you go up, layers of insulation
get introduced.
> > Yeah, I guess me deciding to be a computer user was a social idea as
>much
> > as an intellectual one.
>
>I'm glad you decided for yourself instead of just following the crowd.
You know I say there is no difference, right? If I for some reason chose to
resist the crowd, I'd be followig some other reason. There is nothing that
originates from within me, everything I choose is because of influences
outside me, on me.
>I guess you consider this idea from Pirsig bogus:
>
>"Just as it is more moral for a doctor to kill a germ than a patient, so
>it is more moral for an idea to kill a society than it is for a society to
>kill an idea."
Certainly in its application, yes. There would be nothing moral about Dr
Evil's idea destroying society.
Johnny
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