From: johnny moral (johnnymoral@hotmail.com)
Date: Mon Jul 14 2003 - 22:15:33 BST
Hi David,
you wrote below:
>I've see untrained and
>uneducated voices bash intellect in favor of aesthetics, intuition and
>instinct. I've even seen repressed conformists demonize the creative and
>dynamic. In short, I've seen lots of efforts to rearrange these levels so
>as
>to justify previously held values, in spite of the fact that it distorts or
>flatly contradicts what is in the book. This kind of intellectual
>dishonesty
>deserves a name of its own.
As someone who may seem to have bashed intellect, I want to explain that I
was only bashing the eagerness of abusing the intellectual idea that it is
good to rationally re-examine social values and make them justify
themselves. I was bashing the idea that a social pattern is necessarily a
repressive pattern and that intellectual patterns were better. Pirsig does
suggest that a thoughtful re-examination should be done, but he also goes to
the trouble of reminding people that the social level is required for the
intellectual level, and it shouldn't be harmed. I've been making a case
that all patterns, being moral patterns, should be followed and respected
with the same moral striving for the goodness that comes when a pattern is
continued, when expectation is realized. Please note that I don't bash
intellctual patterns that serve society and help society survive, I only
bash the idea that the existence of the intellectual level means that the
third level is no longer useful, or is somehow bad, and I bash intellectual
ideas that hurt society, strengthen the Giant, and take away people's
autonomy and freedom on this earth. Many ideas that seem to give people
freedom and autonomy actually strengthen the Giant, if they depend on the
Giant for that freedom and autonomy.
Johnny (classification: intellectual)
>From: "Erin N." <enoonan@kent.edu>
>Reply-To: moq_discuss@moq.org
>To: moq_discuss@moq.org
>Subject: RE: MD The Giant (types of patterns/types of people)
>Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 22:38:17 -0400
>
> >
> >dmb says:
> >Hmmm. The usefulness of MY categories? I'm quite sure that we're talking
> >about PIRSIG's categories. Naturally we can only get at that by
>discussing
> >your understanding and comparing it to mine, but let's not pretend
>classify
> >people or things according to the levels is MY controversial invention.
> >Pirsig classifies people and things from cover to cover. In fact, to
>address
> >your objections to "classifying people" I simply posted some key examples
>of
> >Pirsig doing exactly that. In addition to major historical figures like
> >Hitler and FDR, there is the most elaborate example of all, Lila, the
>title
> >character that is explored throughout the book. As Pirsig explains, the
> >whole point of writing the book was to explain why people have different
> >perceptions of quality. And his basic answer is that "everybody is after
> >quality", but some people, like the fictional Lila, don't see
>intellectual
> >quality at all. (I've cited Anna Nichole Smith as a non-fictional example
>of
> >this kind of biologically dominated person.) Its "beyond her range", as
> >Pirsig put it. "intellectually, she's nowhere", he says. He says "she's
> >pretty far down the scale" socially too. She is the title character for a
> >reason, because she was invented to explain these differing perceptions
>of
> >quality. Classifying people is what its all about. What good would it be
>if
> >it didn't? We shold be able to sort out the ideas and notions presented
>here
> >in exactly this way. We should be doing MOQ deconstructions of current
> >events here. That's what I think the levels and "classifying" are all
>about,
> >and this is not something read between the lines or borrowed from Wilber.
> >Pirsig says so explicitly. Said it worked so well that he was tempted to
>do
> >it all day. Not that its quick, easy or certain, but that is the main
> >purpose. What good is it otherwise? But instead of using the MOQ to
>explain
> >things, we get this. Bummer.
> >
> >I suspect there's a reason why so many have so often objected to the way
> >Pirsig sorts things out at the social and intellectual levels. And here I
> >have to get personal, so I have to say that these suspicions are not
>aimed
> >at Steve or Erin, but are general observations about what has gone on
>here
> >for months and years. And I think its interesting, even though I'm angry
>and
> >complaining about the source of that anger, because the conflicts here
>often
> >reflect the conflict between the two levels. I mean, it seems that the
> >greatest resistance to the distinction comes from those who are
>threatened
> >by it, by those who don't like to see Pirsig putting the values they hold
> >most dear in anything but the highest level of values. I've seen
>religious
> >people tear the distinction apart in order to preserve the status of
>their
> >beliefs. I've seen Victorian types fuse the distinction between the 3rd
>and
> >4th level so as to cheat their way up the ladder. I've see untrained and
> >uneducated voices bash intellect in favor of aesthetics, intuition and
> >instinct. I've even seen repressed conformists demonize the creative and
> >dynamic. In short, I've seen lots of efforts to rearrange these levels so
>as
> >to justify previously held values, in spite of the fact that it distorts
>or
> >flatly contradicts what is in the book. This kind of intellectual
>dishonesty
> >deserves a name of its own. Whatever the name, this way of using the MOQ
>as
> >some kind of narcissists Rorschach test is what makes me so angry. Not
>just
> >because it is so transparently self-serving, but because its a huge
> >distraction. Are we not here to discuss Pirsig's MOQ? As far as I know,
> >Pirsig's is the only MOQ. Please, let's do talk about that instead of
> >running around in circles trying to protect our egos with this or that
> >alteration of the levels. Its like eveybody is trying to fix the engine
> >THEIR way, but eveybody is doing it all at once so it never works. For
> >Pete's sake, stop with all the jerry-rigging and get some respect for the
> >original design. Let's get this machine moving, cause I've seen enough
> >self-serving bullshit to keep my garden green for the rest of my life.
> >
> >Thanks for your time,
> >DMB
> >
>
>DMB,
>I have no problem with the design of
>the MOQ or the levels. I don't see Pirsig classifying people, I see
>you doing it. Phaedrus, in my opinion represents the intellectual
>level for Pirsig but as I pointed out Pirsig
>said he was disappointed people thought he
>was Phaedrus, that he was Pheadrus, Rigel, and Lila.
>I have no problem with the design of the MoQ.
>Classifying people is not what its all about to me.
>I classify ideas as high or low quality, regardless
>of whose mouth they come out.
>Your particular above post is low intellectual quality to me
>but I think typically your posts are high intellectual quality.
>As Steve mentioned, Pirsig said you shouldn't be dominated by any static
>level. I think associating yourself with one part is doing just that. I
>don't
>think that I would approach people in a dynamic way with your method. I
>understand that the ideas of Anna Nicole
>tend to be consitently of poor quality and
>Pirsigs and yours tend to be consistently high quality.
>But to me if you just associate yourself with
>one level (which is in my opinion is what
>your categorization is doing) you are not going
>to properly maintain your motorcycle.
>
>Erin
>
>
>
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