From: Mati Palm-Leis (mpalm@merr.com)
Date: Sat Jul 19 2003 - 00:48:56 BST
Hi Johnny & Folks
Mati wrote : I have following the discussion on "Intellectual Level"
with
>interest. For myself I have come to believe that the "Intellectual
>Level" is one's capacity to reason and rationalize the realities they
>experience.
Johnny replied: I'm suggesting that it depends on what is being reasoned
or rationalized. I don't think reasoning that if I contnue to stand
here, that lion over there will eat me, is an intellectual level
thought. I think it is a rational thought to run away, but again, not
an intellectual level thought.
Mati replies: I guess we are all familiar with Flight/Fight/Fright
response in biological animals including us. This is the biological
thinking and for the most part automatic biological thinking, not an
intellectual thought. But when you reason, " if I continue to stand
here, that lion over there will eat me," is an intellectual level
thought because this addressing the question perhaps, "What would happen
if I continue to stand here?" Also we are able reason the level of
risk, if I am here and there is a cage between us I should be ok." Put
a gazelle in your spot and they are off like a shot. We can go on to
reason all kinds of values in this situation, strength of cage, distance
between me and a lion, is the lion hungry, etc. If there is no cage and
we don't rely on our biological instinct to "get out" we probably end up
cat food. :)
Mati Wrote:
>This is perhaps why the Nazis loved their
>book burnings, the possible intellectual (reason/rationalization)
>threaten the social reality the Nazi tried to promote. This brings me
>to my rub as "Thinking" as intellect. We do, I believe think in other
>patterns without necessarily reasoning. IE. I go out to dinner and I
>see an attractive woman, my biological thinking and my interest is
>perked (Biological Thinking). I quickly suppress my interest to not
>offend my wife. (Social Thinking). After all this thinking I am hungry
>and order from the menu (Back to Biological Thinking). I reflect and
>reason/rationalize on this all and try to understand this entire
>experience and it's meaning, and perhaps write a novel(Intellectual
>Level).
Johnny: Exactly, but do you see what you've described as the only
intellectual thought here?
Mati responds: This is an intellectual thought because of the reason and
rational that are used. My body through biological mechanism tells me I
am hungry and I note, "I'm hungry" This is biological thinking, and
recognizes the values that need to sustain my existence. Noting and
describing this process is an intellectual one.
Johnny continues. It is to perhaps write a novel: ie, to effect society.
even if you don't actually write it, if you are thinking in those terms,
that this could be a novel, then you are thinking about these ideas as
they
relate to and effect society.
Mati: Please clarify.
> I see MOQ delineating these patterns to explain and for that
>matter reason or rationalize, the wide array of reality patterns we
>experience.
> As far as using "consciousness or awareness rather than
>intellect" I am concerned that "consciousness" does not have the
>capacity to support our ability to reason values or quality.
Johnny: I see your point. Consciousness is the canvas that morality
paints its patterns on, creating subjects and objects according to the
patterns of
morality. Consciousness also is what expects the patterns to continue,
indeed is where the patterns live as patterns before they are actualized
(this is the pre/post conscious split, which refers to the
self-consciousness (subject) and objects created after the
pre-consciousness
has expected them morally. The rationalization and reason are really
just
patterns themselves, because as I said above, people rationalize and
reason
without being aware of doing it it is a pattern to do so.
Mati asks: Can you give an example.
So you're right, consciousness doesn't do the rationalization, a pattern
does that.
Mati responds: Consciousness it a nebulous concept. Any being with
nervous system can be conscious. A dog is conscious but will never be
intellectual. So to house intellect within in the so-called
consciousness doesn't account for much. Human consciousness is in
probably a left over from the SOM and to me doesn't offer much in
further promoting intellect.
Take care,
Mati
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