From: Ian Glendinning (ian@psybertron.org)
Date: Sat Jul 26 2003 - 16:40:35 BST
Johnny,
I certainly think it's interesting to compare, I've been dipping into
several different communities including these two (MoQ and AI).
Other communities I'm following with interest are Knowledge Management,
Quantum Information Processing and Web Ontologies, because so many (but not
all) approach it without giving a second thought to the philosophical
minefield that lies behind the words "knowledge", information" and
"ontology". (QIP is particulary interesting because I have a hunch it lies
very close to the fundamentals of "what can be known" yet is very much
dominated by un-reconstructed scientists. Fascinating.)
The AI.Philosophy community includes people who hold vastly different
metaphysical viewpoints. One strong stream is the AI.Natural Language, which
naturally tends to the pragmatic view that the way we express the world is
what matters most. I tend to the Cognitive Science view of Jean-Pierre Dupuy
(Mechanization of the Mind) which, despite the mechanistic / scientific
(SOMistic) title, is worth a read IMHO.
Whether any one finds the other "useful" is a pragmatic question of
objectives. I certainly do.
Those looking for the "Ultimate Metaphysics" (whom I respect BTW) may not.
Ian
PS: This is just a fascinating hobby for me,
but I have links to the range of things I'm looking at here,
on my web log www.psybetron.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk
[mailto:owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk]On Behalf Of johnny moral
Sent: 25 July 2003 18:05
To: moq_discuss@moq.org
Subject: Re: MD Talking of Patterns and Intellect
Thanks Ian,
Thanks for bringing that group to my attention. They equate patterns to
predictions, I noticed. Do you their (the AI community, if there is such a
thing) defintion of intellegence would be useful to compare to MoQ's
Intellect, or Intellectual patterns? How would it relate to SOM? I noticed
they talk about Free Will in there too.
>This thread on Google's Comp.AI board may interest ....
>
http://groups.google.com/groups?dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=FGZTTOADNQI%2z%40longley.demon.co.uk&prev=/groups%3Fhl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26gr
4Ewkz%40longley.demon.co.uk&prev=/groups%3Fhl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26gr
oup%3Dcomp.ai.philosophy
>
>(Note - long split-lines - ensure you get the full URL)
>(Failing that, it's thread
>"So intelligence is the ability to find patterns"
>on google groups comp.ai.philosophy
>
>Ian
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk
>[mailto:owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk]On Behalf Of skutvik@online.no
>Sent: 25 July 2003 08:50
>To: moq_discuss@moq.org
>Subject: MD What does Pi.... mean by *static intellectual patterns*?
>
>
>Dear Pi ...rsig ;-)?
>13 July you wrote:
>
> > I would like to apologize if this post sounds like 'preaching' and you
> > don't like to be preached to. This post certianly does not apply to
> > everyone in the forum. But if it does, treat it like a friendly
> > advice. :)
>
>This quiet period gave me a chance to read some of the recent posts
>more thoroughly and this from your was worth dwelling on."Preaching"
>is what we have too little of ;-) . At least your gentle kind.
>
> > I have been reading the posts for a short while now but have noticed
> > that a large number of people have trouble understanding what Pirsig
> > meant by 'static intellectual patterns of quality'. And honestly, it
> > is hard. Pirsig did not spend too much time explaining what he meant
> > by it. I personally took about 2 years to completely draw a boundary
> > around this thing called the intellectual pattern. Part of the whole
> > problem of intellectualizing intellectual patterns is that when you
> > try to draw a line around it, you have to draw a line around the line
> > drawing process!
>
>I could not agree more about the trouble with understanding the
>intellectual level (Q-intellect I call it). The MOQ hinges on it.
>
> > A general word of advice. If you find yourself troubled with the
> > various ideas presented by Pirsig and you know that you don't
> > completely understand his divisions of static quality, persue
> > them. Pirsig's purpose was not to mess up your understanding of the
> > world. It was to clean it up and bring peace.
>
>Hear, hear!!!
>
> > I don't even know if
> > Pirsig even had a purpose, but I certainly felt very peaceful after I
> > understood what intellectual patterns are.
>
>I think those who search, search for recognition of what we vaguely
>feel blocks our way. It may be vague to the extreme, but one
>immediately recognizes it when someone points to it, even in different
>words, and if that person not only affirms the blockage but points to a
>path ahead it's bliss.
>
> > That was the last piece of
> > the puzzle for me. And it was a very important piece. After I got some
> > idae of what it was, I re-read LILA just to absorb anything I
> > previously missed.
>
>I would have loved to hear your story here, but to speak about my own
>blockage it was (what Pirsig identified as) SOM which only left one
>with two alternatives: Give up reason and become a believer in
>something, or stay a sceptic to everything. P. had met the same S/O
>wall, but seen the Q solution, in ZAMM it was all very vague, but
>intensely promising.
>
> > I hope sharing my experience helps you relate in some way. For those
> > of you who are troubled by this philosophy, hang in there. That
> > unsettling feeling is what one feels when those static patterns are
> > broken. And that is a *good* thing. =)
>
>I had hoped for more, is it coming or been presented before? To
>return to my own experience, LILA was also a great revelation. The
>said Quality solution (as I perceived it) was that of seeing the S/O
>reality as a mere static level - intellect - in a series. The whole damned
>mind/matter vertical mountain reduced to a mere rise in the Quality
>terrain.
>
>NB!
> I did not see this SOM=Intellect connection that quickly, but it was
>there from the start and grew on me until aired it in the Lila Squad. It
>has since stabilized as deep conviction.
>
>As said I had hoped for a more detailed account of your reaction
>confronted with Pirsig's works and about the intellectual level in
>particular.
>
>Sincerely
>Bo
>
>
>
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