From: Valuemetaphysics@aol.com
Date: Wed Sep 24 2003 - 20:50:55 BST
Bo:
Mark wrote (the 22th):
> I don't think Pirsig wishes to have to say this, but his audience wants to
know what mind is, and so he speaks
> in a general way: 'let (us) say...'
I like this Mark, I've always tried to explain it in a similar way: Pirsig
was forced to deliver a definition and "mind" came closest to Q-
intellect (I call)
Mark: Hello Bo,
The term 'forced' here implies, for me at least, that Pirsig has a problem
with the term mind. I do not feel this is the case; i do not feel Pirsig has
been 'forced' to deliver a definition he would not, or could not provide. I think
this, because static intellectual patterns are, to some extent, socially
approved - your thinking is influenced by your social experience as well as your
intellectual experience. This introduces static social patterns into the
equation, which are themselves responding to the same DQ that static intellectual
patterns respond to. You can see this makes a definition of mind in MoQ terms as
appropriate as defining Relativity in Newtonian terms? Mind is a term that
does not belong in the MoQ, just as absolute time does not belong in Relativity.
If it is inappropriate for the MoQ to define mind then it may be
inappropriate to introduce the term Q-intellect also?
> 'Intellect is simply thinking' Lila's Child
> PIRSIG in a letter to Ant McWatt Jan 2nd 1998:
> "To prevent confusion, the MOQ treats 'mind' as the
> exact equivalent of 'static intellectual patterns' and
> avoids use of the term when possible."
> Static intellectual patterns are the fourth level in the MoQ and mind is a
term that is to be avoided. If
> people have an ingrained concept of mind, (which is a useless concept if
the process of thinking is not
> involved), then it can be difficult shift without a degree of resistance?
As static intellectual patterns
> respond to DQ, thinking is a Dynamic, and hopefully evolving process. Sorry
for the confusion, Mark
Bo:
You are right, "mind" is ingrained because it's part and parcel of the
mind/matter dichotomy which descends directly from the S/O divide.
The term can't be avoided, but must (as part of the S/O) find its place
within the MOQ and I still think the whole intellectual level is its proper
place. The MOQ is a development "out of intellect", it is born there (in
the same way that Q-intellect was born from Q-society) but is a
stranger at home.
Mark: Mind is ingrained because we are socially conditioned to accept it
don't you feel? Average Joe in the street gives a description of mind that is
derived from his social and intellectual experiences; perhaps Joe A saw a movie in
which someone said, 'Hey Mr! You are out of your mind!' But Joe A is in the
same position as the scientist in that they both cannot give a good account of
it. I use the term 'good' deliberately, because although the scientist tries
to say something, what he says only makes understanding less clear.
So, when you say mind is part and parcel of the mind/matter dichotomy i would
disagree: Mind is a static intellectual pattern that has been socially
approved.
You say that mind (Q-intellect) is the intellectual level of the MoQ - the
subject/object divide is valued for its dynamic potential and this is mind,
because all intellect is of subjects and objects. From mind comes the Quality idea
and the M of the MoQ.
Before mind there was language with no S/O discriminations, and this was the
social level (Q-society.)
You generate a hierarchy of evolution that looks like this:
1. Q-inorganic.
2. Q-organic
3. Q-social
4. Q-intellectual
5. Quality metaphysics.
Once Q-Metaphysics gets a hold the other levels tow the line and submit to
Quality in an ever unifying move towards the Universal.
I hope i have given a fair and accommodating account of your position along
side that of the MoQ?
Mark
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