From: David MOREY (us@divadeus.freeserve.co.uk)
Date: Thu Oct 02 2003 - 20:31:02 BST
Hi Platt
Platt:DQ is always present.
DM: I think it is useful to associate DQ with the movement
of time, and SQ with a snapshot of time. Therefore
I would not like to associate DQ with the present. DQ is
creativity/choice. DQ is the reality of the possible that
sits ahead of the present, that is more than the present,
that if fuller than the present, what becomes present is an
event, a happening, it has finite, it has become determined,
it is SQ rather than DQ. DQ is the move of the possible/abundant
future into the finite and increasingly situated (by the past) now.
The static present is about structure, it is the moment between
past and future, it is a static pattern of now, it can be analysed out
in an SOM fashion, the present is the opposite of the movement
of DQ. Diachronic becoming Vs synchronic being. The quality
of the MOQ is the constant pouring of the of the unbounded into
the limitation (a sort of funnel) of a finite, cosmos of happening/event.
DQ pours towards us, SQ canonly be recognised in what has past.
It is as we spend our lives running backwards looking at where we
and DQ have passed by.
Platt:
> Writing sentences is a static pattern. You have to learn how to do it.
> You don't need to learn anything to respond to DQ. It comes naturally.
> Often, the more someone is "educated," the less he responds to DQ. All
> those static patterns he has invested so much time to learn and thus
> hold in high esteem get in the way.
DM: I was saying sentence of a creative writer (perverse misunderstanding)
therefore you completely fail to answer the point. Also many creatives
highly educated,
in fact most are highly educated only not formally, Blake was very studied
in his field, it is as easy to
say that real thinking is always tied up with DQ, this is what Heidegger
says about
thinking, you just seem to have a taste for the primitive, lets all
become 'natural' man to find our real selves, well this makes the
achievement/evolution of the cosmos pointless from your perspective.
Also I take science as creative, & it is only in context of past
ideas/thinking that you get to ask new and dynamic questions.
I see the present as richer than the past more culture gives a richer
picture to experience this is why we agree less about knowledge now etc.
Say you invent new sort of painting style, must be a more hopeful
enterprise if you are aware of all other existing styles, unless you
are very lucky.
Sure SOM thinking splits the dynamic aspect of experience and places
it all in the subject, and it puts all the SQ in the objective world. The
point
of the MOQ is a holistic one. Experience is whole and full of both SQ and
DQ.
We can change our ideas of causality as Pirsig says and talk about static
patterns
rather than cause/effect. The whole point of MOQ thinking is this holism,
you want
to place DQ outside of experience or what it is to be a human being or a
thinking
human being. For me DQ is both a part of being human and from a cosmic story
point of view part of the SQ/DQ story of the evolution of the cosmos.
Equally,
as we are at a time when a participatory culture is not dominent we need MOQ
thinking to grasp holism in an intellectual way so as to question SOM
dominance.
DQ is a natural experience, it is my experience of DQ that has made me
unsatisfied with
SOM all my life, and long before reading Pirsig. I say thinking includes
SQ/DQ, you have
not yet explained to me why I should draw a line saying thinking is only SQ.
Exeperience
is an SQ/DQ moving process, anything else seems to be moving back to
dualism. Quality
is a unity, you do not seem to be the only person here who wants to
introduce a SQ/DQ
dualism (or do I misunderstand your position?). Think again, this is not
what Pirsig wants to do I suggest.
I hand back to the defense....
regards
David Morey
----- Original Message -----
From: "Platt Holden" <pholden@sc.rr.com>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 8:42 PM
Subject: Re: MD The final solution or new frustration.
> Hi David M,
>
> > You talk about experiencing art as dynamic quality
> > that is not thinking, but what about creating art?
> > Static intellectual patterns are created, during the
> > process of creation surely DQ comes in, it seems
> > to me strange to say that this DQ aspect of creativity
> > has nothing to do with thinking, that you write a sentence
> > and start to think only when you read it back. Is this what
> > you are saying.
>
> Writing sentences is a static pattern. You have to learn how to do it.
> You don't need to learn anything to respond to DQ. It comes naturally.
> Often, the more someone is "educated," the less he responds to DQ. All
> those static patterns he has invested so much time to learn and thus
> hold in high esteem get in the way.
>
> > Can't see why an event/activity is not simply
> > connected to both SQ and DQ at the same time. The split
> > seems very like wave-particle duality to me. The moving
> > unpredictable wave is DQ, the determinable/quantifiable
> > event is always after the event -this is SQ.
>
> You said it. DQ comes first, SQ is "always after the event."
>
> > As I put it
> > in my novel Be(com)ing/quality is always imminent (sic).
> > It has always just passed/past and is never present.
>
> DQ is always the present.
>
> > Being or static patterns is a sort of presence of the past,
> > or what has already occurred, only what has occurred is
> > determined and has lost DQ.
>
> Yes, static patterns (SQ) occur in the wake of DQ.
>
> >I think your dogma of SQ/DQ
> > split does not work in the form you seem to be suggesting.
>
> "Work" according to what assumptions? I take you assume that writing
> is an act of DQ. I disagree and have explained why.
>
> In another post you suggested "difficulty," and "fuller complexity" and
> "intelligence" is somehow related to one's DQ response. I doubt if
> there's a correlation. You must put great store in education, even
> though some of our greatest artists were drop outs and others bordered
> on insanity. :-)
>
> Platt
>
>
>
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