From: David MOREY (us@divadeus.freeserve.co.uk)
Date: Fri Oct 03 2003 - 21:19:19 BST
Hi Platt
Great quote below, as a student of the history of science,
I think the creative aspect of science is a reality that helps
us burst out of much of the SOM ideology of science,
and understand what is so very commen to art and science.
When I say thinking has DQ this is what I mean. To be real
thinking, it has to be related to DQ and the challenge of what is not known,
i.e. what is new. In a way we move closer all the time to grasping what DQ
is, however, it is always moving on ahead of us, hence the impossibility of
closure. Pragmatists have given up on closure and have a negative value
towards it, a metaphysics of Quality/Being presupposes that closure is
impossible
due to the existence of Quality/Be(com)ing.
regards
David M
----- Original Message -----
From: "Platt Holden" <pholden@sc.rr.com>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Friday, October 03, 2003 5:04 PM
Subject: Re: Re: MD The final solution or new frustration.
> Steve,
>
> > > Platt said to Scott:
> > > Here's where our major difference lies. I go along with Pirsig's idea
> > > that the
> > > cutting edge of DQ is pure experience prior to disintegration into
> > > patterns, symbols, thoughts and ideas. You say the cutting edge is
> > > patterns, symbols, thoughts and ideas, as if that once you become an
> > > adult you'll never experience anything again for the first that isn't
> > > an intellectual pattern of one sort or another. Is that an accurate
> > > summary of your belief?.
>
> > Steve
> > Sorry to butt in again.
> >
> > Our major difference is that I think experiences in the form of thoughts
> > have a dynamic cutting edge as do experiences of hot stoves. We aren't
> > any closer to reality when getting burned on a stove as we are when we
> > have an idea. When we think we dynamically hypothesize rationales and
> > select relevent symbols and concepts on the basis of undefined Quality.
> > Of course we also follow established rules of logic (static patterns) so
> > thinking like all experiences has both dynamic and static components.
>
> I wouldn't put it that way because of Pirsig's clear and repeated
> description of the dynamic cutting edge as "pre-intellectual." However,
> perhaps the following quote from his SODV paper is something we can
> agree on:
>
> "But one of the reasons I have spent so much time in this paper
> describing the personal relationship of Werner Heisenberg and Niels
> Bohr in the development of quantum theory is that although the world
> views science as a sort of plodding, logical methodical advancement of
> knowledge, what I saw here were two artists in the throes of creative
> discovery. They were at the cutting edge of knowledge plunging into the
> unknown trying to bring something out of that unknown into a static
> form that would be of value to everyone. As Bohr might have loved to
> observe, science and art are just two different complementary ways of
> looking at the same thing. In the largest sense it is really
> unnecessary to create a meeting of the arts and sciences because in
> actual practice, at the most immediate level they have never really
> been separated. They have always been different aspects of the same
> human purpose."
>
> Anyway, feel free to butt in any time. We learn from one another even
> if we don't always agree.
>
> Thanks,
> Platt
>
>
>
>
>
>
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