From: David MOREY (us@divadeus.freeserve.co.uk)
Date: Tue Oct 07 2003 - 18:14:30 BST
Sam
The last question is: is there any version of metaphysics
that can start without agency if it is to produce a
cosmos which is capable of producing the sort
of self-awareness that humanity establishes in this one?
I was wondering if anyone wanted to talk about agency
as an epi-phenomenon of evolution. Personally, I think
any such approach is incompatible with MOQ. I wonder
sometimes if all the talk about 4th level intellect looks a bit
like making agency an epi-phenomenon. Even, can we imagine
agency without intellect?
Regards
David M
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sam Norton" <elizaphanian@tiscali.co.uk>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Monday, October 06, 2003 12:05 PM
Subject: Re: MD Intellectual level - New letter from Pirsig
> Hi David,
>
> I missed this in my first run through.
>
> I think I would want to echo Augustine - that in God we find our freedom,
ie in the ability to be
> open to DQ (and where it directs us) we are no longer bound by the static
(social and intellectual)
> patterns which have formed us. As such, if we have agency, then yes, I
think it probably does
> partake of the infinite.
>
> I'm afraid I don't see the logic behind your last question - but it sounds
interesting!
>
> Sam
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David MOREY" <us@divadeus.freeserve.co.uk>
> To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 7:08 PM
> Subject: Re: MD Intellectual level - New letter from Pirsig
>
>
> > Sam
> >
> > Seems to me that it is here that we start to be unable
> > to draw a line between Man/Being/God. Is that what you're
> > thinking? Can't see how you can't begin ontologically with agency, what
is
> > very strange is that there is a patterned, repeating, static, finite
> > cosmos. Pure agency is surely infinite, we may say divine,
> > and free. Yet we have a cosmos of repeating patterns and
> > continued emergent creation. Seems to me that you get
> > patterns/repetition if you sacrifice your agency, if you value
> > what has been created, enough to do it again, loving it,
> > allowing it to endure. Is there any alternative to this approach
> > that does not produce a non-aware cosmos in any form?
> >
> > regards
> > David Morey
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Sam Norton" <elizaphanian@tiscali.co.uk>
> > To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 6:15 PM
> > Subject: Re: MD Intellectual level - New letter from Pirsig
> >
> >
> > > Hi Paul, anyone,
> > >
> > > Just while I'm working on a few things relating to this.... ;-)
> > >
> > > In his letter to you, Pirsig writes:
> > > > You have to cut it off somewhere, and it seems to me the
> > > > greatest meaning can be given to the intellectual level if it is
> > > > confined to the skilled manipulation of abstract symbols that have
no
> > > > corresponding particular experience and which behave according to
rules
> > > > of their own.
> > >
> > > Do you have any idea about who or what might be *doing* the
manipulation
> > (ie, who or what has the
> > > 'skill')? Or is it that the symbols react to Quality on their own,
without
> > an intermediary? Or
> > > something else?
> > >
> > > Sam
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
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