From: Scott R (jse885@spinn.net)
Date: Mon Nov 03 2003 - 00:21:08 GMT
David,
The difference in seeming needs no unpacking. It is the "natural attitude".
I think, to praraphrase Nagel, that there is something that it is like to be
me, and that something is different from my experience of rocks and trees.
The question I am presenting to the MOQ is: does the MOQ explain these two
seemings? My answer is no. It assumes one and ignores the other.
I said you missed the point because I was simply noting that in the natural
attitude there are two seemings. You then went on at length how
philosophically, one can put these seemings into question. Of course one
can, but my point is that the MOQ does so in a way that simply denies one of
them, whereas I think one shouldn't do that. Instead, I recommend treating
them as a contradictory identity.
- Scott
----- Original Message -----
From: "David MOREY" <us@divadeus.freeserve.co.uk>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2003 3:26 PM
Subject: Re: MD Self-consciousness
> Scott
>
> You're missing mine. I want you to unpack the distinction because
> I cannot see how you can justify it. But maybe we are using terms
> differently, if you unpack it, maybe I can understand what you are
> doing wrong, or understand what I have got wrong.
>
> regards
> David M
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Scott R" <jse885@spinn.net>
> To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
> Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2003 5:10 PM
> Subject: Re: MD Self-consciousness
>
>
> > David,
> >
> > You're missing my point here. Yes the me/not-me distinction needs a LOT
of
> > unpacking, but first it has to be acknowledged, and it is that initial
> > acknowledgment that I see Pirsig as avoiding in his eagerness to unpack
> SOM,
> > and so throwing a contradictory baby out with the bathwater.
> >
> > - Scott
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "David MOREY" <us@divadeus.freeserve.co.uk>
> > To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
> > Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2003 2:13 PM
> > Subject: Re: MD Self-consciousness
> >
> >
> > > Hi Scott
> > >
> > > This is interesting because unusually I disagree with you.
> > >
> > > Scott: By "inside" and "outside" I am referring to the fact that in
> sense
> > > > perception I experience things that seem to be not me, while in
> thinking
> > > I
> > > > experience things that seem to be me. Pirsig does not pay attention
to
> > the
> > > > existence of those two very different kinds of seeming, in effect
> > assuming
> > > > that one (sense perception) is basic, and the other an illusion
(note
> > that
> > > I
> > > > am referring to the *seeming* as illusory, not the actual thinking).
> > Hence
> > > > my accusation of nominalism, and that by ignoring the two types of
> > seeming
> > > > he is not being empirical.
> > >
> > > David M: I think this me/not-me distinction needs unpacking. There is
> > > certainly
> > > a distinction between what I can will to respond/have agency with all
> the
> > > time,
> > > i.e. my body, but my car can also start to feel like a body when I
drive
> > it
> > > so much.
> > > People with artificial limbs controlled by brain waves have certainly
> > > reported feeling
> > > like they became part of their body, and in a way we can gain agency
> over
> > > anything
> > > in our environment with the necessary energy/tools. Sure you can lay
> cliam
> > > to your thoughts
> > > but I often feel like they are something that flow through me and are
> > > connected in ways
> > > that I cannot entirely account for in terms of any sort of
progression.
> It
> > > seems hard to say that
> > > we cause thinking or if thinking just happens to us, is thinking ours
or
> > is
> > > it a gift from out
> > > of nothing/transcendence? I certainly see thinking/perception as
> entirely
> > > enmeshed, do you
> > > really think Pirsig gives priority to perception?
> > > Quality=reality=expereience. And this is as much stuff-in-the-
> > > world as it is stuff-in-your-head. Head-experience-world are pretty
> > > inseperable I suggest.
> > > Sure, Pirsig has a go about thinking as reasoning, becuase a lot of
what
> > we
> > > experience is very
> > > spontaneous and has little to do with deliberating-thinking. But I
think
> > the
> > > whole of perception/the body
> > > exhibit vast amounts of intelligence, otherwise of course you would
not
> > see
> > > a thing. Merleau-Ponty is
> > > very very good on this. I think your argument with Pirsig is because
> > > sometimes he is using a narrow
> > > sense of thinking as theory-deliberate-thinking and you want to talk
> about
> > > the broader intelligence-perception-
> > > thinking. Surely primitive man has onlt the one type of
> > > particpatory-seeming, and this is what Pirsig is getting
> > > at when he says quality, quality begins with primordial
> non-distinguished
> > > reality, pretty hard for any of us
> > > to get with thse days, deep meditation seems the best way, dropping
all
> > your
> > > presuppositions is very hard,
> > > Heidegger, for me, pushes hardest in this direction.
> > >
> > > regards
> > > David M
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Scott R" <jse885@spinn.net>
> > > To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
> > > Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 5:51 PM
> > > Subject: Re: MD Self-consciousness
> > >
> > >
> > > > David,
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Scott (I think):Nevertheless, this attitude seems to me to more
than
> a
> > > > > little
> > > > > nominalist, since it looks to that which comes from the outside as
> > > > > privileged over that which comes from the inside.
> > > > >
> > > > > What is this outside/inside distinction,
reality=quality=experience
> > > > > we experience, there is no inside or outside, it is outsideless.
> > > > > We can create a theoretical cosmic story but we can not
> > > > > experience anything outside of experience, I suggest, pretty
> > > > > obvious really.
> > > >
> > > > By "inside" and "outside" I am referring to the fact that in sense
> > > > perception I experience things that seem to be not me, while in
> thinking
> > > I
> > > > experience things that seem to be me. Pirsig does not pay attention
to
> > the
> > > > existence of those two very different kinds of seeming, in effect
> > assuming
> > > > that one (sense perception) is basic, and the other an illusion
(note
> > that
> > > I
> > > > am referring to the *seeming* as illusory, not the actual thinking).
> > Hence
> > > > my accusation of nominalism, and that by ignoring the two types of
> > seeming
> > > > he is not being empirical.
> > > >
> > > > - Scott
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
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