From: David MOREY (us@divadeus.freeserve.co.uk)
Date: Sun Nov 02 2003 - 22:26:45 GMT
Scott
You're missing mine. I want you to unpack the distinction because
I cannot see how you can justify it. But maybe we are using terms
differently, if you unpack it, maybe I can understand what you are
doing wrong, or understand what I have got wrong.
regards
David M
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott R" <jse885@spinn.net>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2003 5:10 PM
Subject: Re: MD Self-consciousness
> David,
>
> You're missing my point here. Yes the me/not-me distinction needs a LOT of
> unpacking, but first it has to be acknowledged, and it is that initial
> acknowledgment that I see Pirsig as avoiding in his eagerness to unpack
SOM,
> and so throwing a contradictory baby out with the bathwater.
>
> - Scott
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David MOREY" <us@divadeus.freeserve.co.uk>
> To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
> Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2003 2:13 PM
> Subject: Re: MD Self-consciousness
>
>
> > Hi Scott
> >
> > This is interesting because unusually I disagree with you.
> >
> > Scott: By "inside" and "outside" I am referring to the fact that in
sense
> > > perception I experience things that seem to be not me, while in
thinking
> > I
> > > experience things that seem to be me. Pirsig does not pay attention to
> the
> > > existence of those two very different kinds of seeming, in effect
> assuming
> > > that one (sense perception) is basic, and the other an illusion (note
> that
> > I
> > > am referring to the *seeming* as illusory, not the actual thinking).
> Hence
> > > my accusation of nominalism, and that by ignoring the two types of
> seeming
> > > he is not being empirical.
> >
> > David M: I think this me/not-me distinction needs unpacking. There is
> > certainly
> > a distinction between what I can will to respond/have agency with all
the
> > time,
> > i.e. my body, but my car can also start to feel like a body when I drive
> it
> > so much.
> > People with artificial limbs controlled by brain waves have certainly
> > reported feeling
> > like they became part of their body, and in a way we can gain agency
over
> > anything
> > in our environment with the necessary energy/tools. Sure you can lay
cliam
> > to your thoughts
> > but I often feel like they are something that flow through me and are
> > connected in ways
> > that I cannot entirely account for in terms of any sort of progression.
It
> > seems hard to say that
> > we cause thinking or if thinking just happens to us, is thinking ours or
> is
> > it a gift from out
> > of nothing/transcendence? I certainly see thinking/perception as
entirely
> > enmeshed, do you
> > really think Pirsig gives priority to perception?
> > Quality=reality=expereience. And this is as much stuff-in-the-
> > world as it is stuff-in-your-head. Head-experience-world are pretty
> > inseperable I suggest.
> > Sure, Pirsig has a go about thinking as reasoning, becuase a lot of what
> we
> > experience is very
> > spontaneous and has little to do with deliberating-thinking. But I think
> the
> > whole of perception/the body
> > exhibit vast amounts of intelligence, otherwise of course you would not
> see
> > a thing. Merleau-Ponty is
> > very very good on this. I think your argument with Pirsig is because
> > sometimes he is using a narrow
> > sense of thinking as theory-deliberate-thinking and you want to talk
about
> > the broader intelligence-perception-
> > thinking. Surely primitive man has onlt the one type of
> > particpatory-seeming, and this is what Pirsig is getting
> > at when he says quality, quality begins with primordial
non-distinguished
> > reality, pretty hard for any of us
> > to get with thse days, deep meditation seems the best way, dropping all
> your
> > presuppositions is very hard,
> > Heidegger, for me, pushes hardest in this direction.
> >
> > regards
> > David M
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Scott R" <jse885@spinn.net>
> > To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
> > Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 5:51 PM
> > Subject: Re: MD Self-consciousness
> >
> >
> > > David,
> > >
> > >
> > > > Scott (I think):Nevertheless, this attitude seems to me to more than
a
> > > > little
> > > > nominalist, since it looks to that which comes from the outside as
> > > > privileged over that which comes from the inside.
> > > >
> > > > What is this outside/inside distinction, reality=quality=experience
> > > > we experience, there is no inside or outside, it is outsideless.
> > > > We can create a theoretical cosmic story but we can not
> > > > experience anything outside of experience, I suggest, pretty
> > > > obvious really.
> > >
> > > By "inside" and "outside" I am referring to the fact that in sense
> > > perception I experience things that seem to be not me, while in
thinking
> > I
> > > experience things that seem to be me. Pirsig does not pay attention to
> the
> > > existence of those two very different kinds of seeming, in effect
> assuming
> > > that one (sense perception) is basic, and the other an illusion (note
> that
> > I
> > > am referring to the *seeming* as illusory, not the actual thinking).
> Hence
> > > my accusation of nominalism, and that by ignoring the two types of
> seeming
> > > he is not being empirical.
> > >
> > > - Scott
> > >
> > >
> > >
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