From: parukka (parukka@email.it)
Date: Mon Nov 03 2003 - 00:19:27 GMT
----- Original Message -----
From: "David MOREY" <us@divadeus.freeserve.co.uk>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2003 11:36 PM
Subject: Re: MD Self-consciousness
> dmb says:
> The outside is privileged in the MOQ? Again, I think this is exactly what
> Pirsig is NOT saying. The traditional empiricism that Pirsig describes
above
> is yer standard SOM position and pretty much defines what objectivity is.
> This is the kind of empiricism that priviledges the outside. This is one
of
> the main problems with SOM, especially the dominant variety: scientific
> materialism. Pirsig's expanded empiricism seeks to overcome this problem.
> Not only does he add a sense of value, there is also the insistence that
> legitimate intellectual knowledge not only comes through, is mediated by,
> our biological senses, but also that it should be mediated through the
> social level, that we shouldn't even pretend our ideas are produced by
> biological brains and nothing more. And unlike SOM it treats the "inside"
as
> real as the "outside", if you will.
>
> The above is right. Rorty would agree with most of this I think-by the
way.
> It is well accepted now in scientific epistemology that science is just
one
> approach to reality,
> one that is a partial selection of what is important, and that there is no
> truth free from values
> or societal concerns. The MOQ offers a non-quantifying approach to static
> patterns
> that allows us to do some MOQing in a broader language, where we can look
at
> non-material
> organisation/systems, such as society that is so structured by
> ideas/language.
>
> regards
> David M
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Buchanan" <DBuchanan@ClassicalRadio.org>
> To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
> Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2003 6:17 PM
> Subject: RE: MD Self-consciousness
>
>
> > Scott and all thread followers:
> >
> > Scott said:
> > My objection to Pirsig's response is his treating "an abstraction" as
> > somehow inferior to "concrete". This is the nominalism of Pirsig that I
> > object to. Basically, Pirsig is adopting the basic nominalist
orientation
> > that the more "sense perceptible" something is, the more real it is, in
> the
> > style of Dr. Johnson refuting Berkeley by kicking a stone. Now he
(Pirsig}
> > would expand that orientation to argue that "art and morality and even
> > religious mysticism" belong in the concrete, and hence "more real" (and
so
> > distinguishes the MOQ from materialism), but would deny that to
> > "abstraction".
> >
> > dmb says:
> > As I understand it, nominalism is the denial of the existence of
> universals.
> > It says things like truth and beauty do not exist excepts as an abstract
> > feature of all true and beautiful things, apart from the particular
forms
> of
> > the natural world. I think this is exactly what Pirsig is NOT saying. He
> > saying we ought not treat them as abstractions, but as real things. He's
> not
> > even coming close to saying they are material things, only that they are
> no
> > less real. And of course, he's only how we ought to TREAT them, that we
> > should act AS IF they were real.
> >
> > On Wednesday, Scott said:
> > I think you're correct on this, though Pirsig first defines empiricism
as
> > "[empiricism] claims that all legitimate human knowledge arises from the
> > senses or by thinking about what the senses provide." [Ch. 8], though he
> > goes on to include art and morality and "even religious mysticism" as
> > "verifiable". Nevertheless, this attitude seems to me to more than a
> little
> > nominalist, since it looks to that which comes from the outside as
> > privileged over that which comes from the inside.
> >
> > dmb says:
> > The outside is privileged in the MOQ? Again, I think this is exactly
what
> > Pirsig is NOT saying. The traditional empiricism that Pirsig describes
> above
> > is yer standard SOM position and pretty much defines what objectivity
is.
> > This is the kind of empiricism that priviledges the outside. This is one
> of
> > the main problems with SOM, especially the dominant variety: scientific
> > materialism. Pirsig's expanded empiricism seeks to overcome this
problem.
> > Not only does he add a sense of value, there is also the insistence that
> > legitimate intellectual knowledge not only comes through, is mediated
by,
> > our biological senses, but also that it should be mediated through the
> > social level, that we shouldn't even pretend our ideas are produced by
> > biological brains and nothing more. And unlike SOM it treats the
"inside"
> as
> > real as the "outside", if you will.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > dmb
> >
> >
> >
> > MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
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> > MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net
> >
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> >
> >
>
>
>
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