From: Platt Holden (pholden@sc.rr.com)
Date: Sat Dec 20 2003 - 16:42:31 GMT
Hi David M,
> Well I a European socialist, a post-secular mystic in my recognistion
> of DQ, deeply concerned with the awful behaviour of ALL the
> men of violence, and whilst congratualting capitalism's delivery
> of technology and productive power, concerned about its SOM,
> its use of people as means rather than ends, its authoritarianism,
> its global waste and threat, its dumbing down effects of market
> exploitation, the inequality that reduces the quality and potential
> DQ of millions of lives.
You're welcome to your personal opinion, of course, but I find nothing in
Pirsig's writings to suggest capitalism is the bugaboo you think it is,
nor do I find him saying that equality has anything to do with people
experiencing DQ. If you can find where Pirsig supports your assertions,
please let us know.
> But I strongly agree that Europe needs to
> overcome its secularism, but suggest the US needs to throw off the yoke of
> its capitalism. Capitalism has now become a block of DQ change in the
> world. Mainly due to its support of inequality that is wasting the DQ
> resource of millions of people by giving them no chance to better
> themselves.
Ditto above.
> I also agree that the problem with socialism eastern europe
> style was the lack of DQ, but capitalism in US is producing big social
> problems now, basic security on the street and in the home is terrible.
> Western europe has kept up a better level of state security/help/less
> inequality than the US without becoming static in terms of development and
> intellectual freedom.
From what I read Europe is having difficult social problems due to a heavy
influx of immigrants, mostly Muslim. So all is not sweet and light there..
Nor do I see where Pirsig offers socialism as the solution. In fact, in
Chap. 24 of Lila he specifically points to the intellectual level's lack
of moral standards as the culprit.
"Morals can't function normally because morals have been declared
intellectually illegal by the subject-object metaphysics that dominates
present social thought. These subject-object patterns were never designed
for the job of governing society. They're not doing it. When they're put
in the position of controlling society, of setting moral standards and
declaring values, and when they then declare that there are no values and
no morals, the result isn't progress. The result is social catastrophe."
Pirsig offers the MOQ as a solution, not socialism and more equality.
> > Also:"Destroying an inferior culture is better than
> > allowing that inferior culture to become a threat."
>
> Well, destroying may not be the only option, it may also
> mean that ceasing to be the superior culture through the degradation
> of war, and it would be better to be defeated then to destroy both
> cultures.
Huh? Have you some examples where defeat of a superior culture turned out
to be better?
> Also victory may not be possible via war, and long wars will
> reduce quality in all cultures. Unless you buy into a victory fantasy there
> are other options, and victory is never certain, always risky, and perhaps
> even dangerous for the victor. Would we be better off without the battle of
> the sexes?
What has sex got to do with battles between cultures? And, was victory of
Germany and Japan in WW II a "fantasy"?
> I do
> not really think that the modern world will be eradicated by
> fundamentalism. There is much media panic and hysteria.
Agree. I don't think radical Islam will destroy secular socialism or Judeo-
Christian capitalism. But, if you listen to their leaders, they are sure
as hell going to try. Do we just sit back and let them hi-jack airplanes
and run them into tall buildings, killing thousands?
> Also, the other
> culture always contains both aspects that are above and below your own
> culture or just plain different and interesting and offering to make the
> whole richer. I think the conflict has roots other than a battle of
> cultures.
What might those other roots be? Do you see roots other than those
explained in the MOQ?
Regards,
Platt
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