From: David MOREY (us@divadeus.freeserve.co.uk)
Date: Sat Dec 20 2003 - 18:01:25 GMT
Hi Platt
As you know early on in Lila,
Pirsig expresses concern about
entering into a part of the country
where the inequality is high.
Do you think that inequality has benefits?
As long as I can pay for my food and rent
and a few books I think the quality of my life is
good. Not sure if working 60 hours a week, never
reading never seeing the family and driving a big
car has anything to do with quality. Lots of wealth
seems to be spent on demonstrating status of a
rather trivial kind. I don't think that scientists, poets,
writers, thinkers have the status they use to have compared
to zero talent celebrity. I think that we would have
more quality if we tried to spend less time working and
consuming. Many free things are of very high quality.
Thinking and walking on the Yorkshire Moors for
example. Like many people I have very little desire to
compete with other people to see who can earn the most
money.
No problem with resisting terror, but not sure if war is the
best answer. No examples of defeat would be better than
destroying the world as the world is still here for the moment.
Capitalism is a system for producing the greatest return
for capital from human production and work. Once we have
met our basic needs what use is it? Do you have no concern
that we may just consume the world out of sustainability?
Or that wealth is used to manipulate human needs and
consumption. Does Pirsig pursue financial gains in his books
as his number one value? Or does he drift around on a
motorbike, thinking, and hanging out with Indians?
I work and live near a large muslim community, only
problems to date have been with some racists and
some typical urban deprivation, some drug problems,
nothing much with religion. Not too many shotings & street
crimes in these parts compared to US. But clearly you
are better off living in the US or Western Europe than
the more exploited parts of the world. The parts most
exploited by capitalism of course, where it props up
low quality governments to make it easier to operate
without political problems arising from anything as
dangerous as democracy. Of course, capitalism looks
good from the US and also Europe. But ever been abroad to take a look Platt?
Capitalism like some sort of strong medicine
that has killed off all the bad bugs but has to keep going and is now
attacking
the body it was meant to be serving.
Do you think the US can keep increasing its borrowing and trade deficits?
The US has so much going for it, above all its construction without a class
system, but it seems a terrible shame to me how it now worships
inequality and allows so many of its people to have the American dream
in vain. And it fails to have a more constructive impact on world politics,
war is a clear indication of failure. By the way, you seem to forget the
larger role of the Russians in defeating the Nazis in WW2. A good thing
perhaps, given the extremity of Nazi views, but Stalin was bad news for
the Russian people, and which culture was superior here. Germany had
more writers and poets per head than any other country in the world
in the 1930s. Many Jewish, of course, but the self-destruction was of
a great culture in Germany. But did not capitalistic exploitation in Germany
not have a role in allowing the Nazis to gain power. History is of course
highly complex. I am less of a socialist in any -everyone must be entirely
equal form- than simply against extreme inequality that turns large parts
of society into the slaves of another part, and makes some countries the
easy
prey of the powerful ones. The UK is as involved as the US in this of course
but we have maintained lower levels of inequality than the US, but only
just.
The Germans and French have done better at maintaining values of social
balance that makes capitalism and trade a tool rather than a master.
regards
David M
----- Original Message -----
From: "Platt Holden" <pholden@sc.rr.com>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2003 4:42 PM
Subject: Re: MD Battle of Values
> Hi David M,
>
> > Well I a European socialist, a post-secular mystic in my recognistion
> > of DQ, deeply concerned with the awful behaviour of ALL the
> > men of violence, and whilst congratualting capitalism's delivery
> > of technology and productive power, concerned about its SOM,
> > its use of people as means rather than ends, its authoritarianism,
> > its global waste and threat, its dumbing down effects of market
> > exploitation, the inequality that reduces the quality and potential
> > DQ of millions of lives.
>
> You're welcome to your personal opinion, of course, but I find nothing in
> Pirsig's writings to suggest capitalism is the bugaboo you think it is,
> nor do I find him saying that equality has anything to do with people
> experiencing DQ. If you can find where Pirsig supports your assertions,
> please let us know.
>
> > But I strongly agree that Europe needs to
> > overcome its secularism, but suggest the US needs to throw off the yoke
of
> > its capitalism. Capitalism has now become a block of DQ change in the
> > world. Mainly due to its support of inequality that is wasting the DQ
> > resource of millions of people by giving them no chance to better
> > themselves.
>
> Ditto above.
>
> > I also agree that the problem with socialism eastern europe
> > style was the lack of DQ, but capitalism in US is producing big social
> > problems now, basic security on the street and in the home is terrible.
> > Western europe has kept up a better level of state security/help/less
> > inequality than the US without becoming static in terms of development
and
> > intellectual freedom.
>
> From what I read Europe is having difficult social problems due to a heavy
> influx of immigrants, mostly Muslim. So all is not sweet and light there..
> Nor do I see where Pirsig offers socialism as the solution. In fact, in
> Chap. 24 of Lila he specifically points to the intellectual level's lack
> of moral standards as the culprit.
>
> "Morals can't function normally because morals have been declared
> intellectually illegal by the subject-object metaphysics that dominates
> present social thought. These subject-object patterns were never designed
> for the job of governing society. They're not doing it. When they're put
> in the position of controlling society, of setting moral standards and
> declaring values, and when they then declare that there are no values and
> no morals, the result isn't progress. The result is social catastrophe."
>
> Pirsig offers the MOQ as a solution, not socialism and more equality.
>
> > > Also:"Destroying an inferior culture is better than
> > > allowing that inferior culture to become a threat."
> >
> > Well, destroying may not be the only option, it may also
> > mean that ceasing to be the superior culture through the degradation
> > of war, and it would be better to be defeated then to destroy both
> > cultures.
>
> Huh? Have you some examples where defeat of a superior culture turned out
> to be better?
>
> > Also victory may not be possible via war, and long wars will
> > reduce quality in all cultures. Unless you buy into a victory fantasy
there
> > are other options, and victory is never certain, always risky, and
perhaps
> > even dangerous for the victor. Would we be better off without the battle
of
> > the sexes?
>
> What has sex got to do with battles between cultures? And, was victory of
> Germany and Japan in WW II a "fantasy"?
>
> > I do
> > not really think that the modern world will be eradicated by
> > fundamentalism. There is much media panic and hysteria.
>
> Agree. I don't think radical Islam will destroy secular socialism or
Judeo-
> Christian capitalism. But, if you listen to their leaders, they are sure
> as hell going to try. Do we just sit back and let them hi-jack airplanes
> and run them into tall buildings, killing thousands?
>
> > Also, the other
> > culture always contains both aspects that are above and below your own
> > culture or just plain different and interesting and offering to make the
> > whole richer. I think the conflict has roots other than a battle of
> > cultures.
>
> What might those other roots be? Do you see roots other than those
> explained in the MOQ?
>
> Regards,
> Platt
>
>
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