From: David MOREY (us@divadeus.freeserve.co.uk)
Date: Mon Jan 05 2004 - 20:10:37 GMT
DM: I pretty much agree with the below, I think the best option is to
appreciate
what SQ delivers/achieves whilst not thinking that it implies some
underlying substance or forms,
certain patterns are good (valued) they get repeated but that can be
shrugged off as far as human being
is concerned. However the patterns that are oldest are hardest to break
down, like being an electron pattern,
but given enouigh energy all patterns can be broken up. I think we then have
to turn to something like
Rupert Sheldrake's morophic resonance to describe how certain patterns gain
popularity (of repetition) at certain times.
If we give up fundmental laws and substance we have to see things like
proton mass as contingent and then we need
to make sort sort of sense of how a given pattern like this can become the
dominant or exclusive one.
regards
David m
Ant said:
Ultimately, static forms in the MOQ are thought to be essentially
intellectual constructions applied to a Dynamic ever-changing reality.
David M said:
I have a problem with this. And it is the thing I most felt reading your PhD
paper. I am very keen to get DQ recognised, I am quite happy to say
ultimately everything is subject to change and dissolution, but SQ has to
have a stronger basis than the above. Intellectual constructions of what?
A good question as I think it points to the fundamental division (as
Northrop, 1946, p.450 notes) between Eastern and Western philosophy.
Anyway, to answer your question:
If you were Plato, you would state that the (eternal) Forms are what
intellectual constructions are pointing to. While, of course, Aristotle
would say substance.
If you were Pirsig, you would say value. Having the "Forms" (as static
patterns) inhered in value, at least avoids the separation of appearance and
reality and is one of the reasons why I prefer the MOQ to the idea of
Platonic Forms. I expand on this subject in Section 2.8 of the PhD
Textbook.
Another point worth keeping in mind is that Buddhist thought tends to view
reality as neither an oneness nor a manyness. Hence, the two implied
viewpoints found in the MOQ; the Dynamic/mystic viewpoint where everything
is DQ (and, therefore new and original) and the static/metaphysical
viewpoint where DQ and SQ are distinct (and patterns can form).
----- Original Message -----
From: <ant.mcwatt@ntlworld.com>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Monday, January 05, 2004 5:12 AM
Subject: MD intellectual level
Ant said:
Ultimately, static forms in the MOQ are thought to be essentially
intellectual constructions applied to a Dynamic ever-changing reality.
David M said:
I have a problem with this. And it is the thing I most felt reading your PhD
paper. I am very keen to get DQ recognised, I am quite happy to say
ultimately everything is subject to change and dissolution, but SQ has to
have a stronger basis than the above. Intellectual constructions of what?
A good question as I think it points to the fundamental division (as
Northrop, 1946, p.450 notes) between Eastern and Western philosophy.
Anyway, to answer your question:
If you were Plato, you would state that the (eternal) Forms are what
intellectual constructions are pointing to. While, of course, Aristotle
would say substance.
If you were Pirsig, you would say value. Having the "Forms" (as static
patterns) inhered in value, at least avoids the separation of appearance and
reality and is one of the reasons why I prefer the MOQ to the idea of
Platonic Forms. I expand on this subject in Section 2.8 of the PhD
Textbook.
Another point worth keeping in mind is that Buddhist thought tends to view
reality as neither an oneness nor a manyness. Hence, the two implied
viewpoints found in the MOQ; the Dynamic/mystic viewpoint where everything
is DQ (and, therefore new and original) and the static/metaphysical
viewpoint where DQ and SQ are distinct (and patterns can form).
I'd also have a look at what Khoo hock aun states about this distinction in
his posts to MOQ Discuss during December 2003. For instance:
"Pirsig's introduction of an undefined Dynamic Quality in Lila serves to
illustrate, in my view, the residual, underlying fundamental nature of an
uncreated and unmanifested universe that cannot be measured, perceived and
identified by the senses. In Buddhism, the letting go of a pattern, of any
pattern, is considered good, and each step in this direction is a step taken
towards realising nirvana or in my view, Dynamic Quality. Dynamic Quality
here is, as Static Quality is - neutral. The morality of our actions hence
is determined by the degree with which we cling on to static quality
(patterns of any value) or release a static quality (patterns of any value)
of its hold on our imagined 'selves'." (Khoo hock aun to MOQ Discuss, Dec
24th 2003)
Finally, it would be an error to get too attached to either the static or
Dynamic viewpoints found in the MOQ. Remember the section in ZMM where the
narrator discusses gravity being a ghost? Well, the Buddha had a pretty
neat ghost story as well:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
A man was very afraid of ghosts. And unfortunately he had to pass the
cemetery every day, coming and going. And sometimes he was late, and in the
night he had to pass the cemetery. His house was behind the cemetery, and
very close to it. And he was so afraid of ghosts that his life was a
constant torture. He could not sleep: the whole night he was disturbed by
the ghosts. Sometimes they were knocking on the doors, and sometimes moving
inside the house, and he could hear their footsteps and their whisperings.
Sometimes they would come very close to him and he could even feel their
breath. He was in a constant hell.
He went to a master, and the master said, "This is nothing. You have come
to the right person." Just like I say to you! "Take this mantra - this is
enough, and you need not be worried. You just put this mantra in a small
golden box and carry the box always. You can hang it around your neck."
It is just like a locket: it is a mantra like the magic box that I give to
sannyasins who are going far away from me. The master said, "You keep this
mantra. You need not even repeat it; it is so potent that it need not be
repeated. You just keep it in the box. Keep the box with you and no ghost
will ever trouble you." And it really happened: that day the man passed
through the cemetery almost as if he was going for a morning walk. Never
before had it been so easy. He used to run! He used to scream and shout, and
he had to sing songs while passing. That day he walked very slowly with the
box in his hand, and it really worked! No ghosts. He was even standing in
the middle of the cemetery, waiting for somebody to come, and no ghost
turned up. It was utter silence.
Then the man went home. He put the box underneath his pillow. That night
nobody knocked on the door, nobody whispered, nobody came close to him. That
was the first time in his whole life that he slept well. It was a great
mantra. But now he became too attached to the box. He could not leave it
anywhere, the whole day he had to carry it everywhere.
People started asking, "Why do you go on carrying this box?"
And he said, "This is my safety, my security."
He became so afraid that now if some day this box was lost, "I will be in
great trouble, and those ghosts will take great revenge!" Eating - and he
had his box. And in the toilet - he had his box. Making love to his woman -
and he had his box. He was going crazy! And now the fear was too much: if it
is stolen, if somebody plays a trick or if he loses it somewhere, or if
something happens to the box, then what? "Then for months those ghosts are
hankering to create trouble for me! They will jump upon me from everywhere,
and they will kill me!"
The master inquired one day about how things were going.
The man said, "Everything is good. Everything is perfectly good, but now I
am being tortured by my own fears. Again I cannot sleep. The whole night I
have to see whether the box is still there. Again and again I have to wake
myself up and search for the box. And if sometimes it slips here and there
in the bed and I cannot find... it is so frightening! I get so scared!"
The master said, "Now I will give you another mantra. Throw away this
box."
Then the man said, "Then how am I going to protect myself from the
ghosts?"
The master said, "They are not there. This box is just nonsense. Those
ghosts are not there; that's why this box has worked. Those ghosts are only
in your imagination. If they were really there they would not be afraid of
the box. It is just your idea, those ghosts were your idea. Now you have got
a better idea, because you have got a master. And the master has given you a
box, a magic spell. Now be more understanding: the ghosts are not there,
that's why this box has helped. Now there is no need to get so obsessed with
the box. Throw it away!"
(From the Heart Sutra, #9)
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Finally, over the weekend, I've managed to have read about a third of your
"Secret of Matter" book and found it very readable. I'll post specific
points about it to you in the next day or so.
Best wishes,
Anthony.
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