From: Paul Turner (paulj.turner@ntlworld.com)
Date: Sat Jan 24 2004 - 18:18:52 GMT
Mati
Mati said:
Could you summarize how SOLAQI is "incompatible" [with the rest of the
MOQ]?
Paul:
The MOQ basic principle - some things are better than others - applies
to everything. This means that, as well as some levels being better than
others, some inorganic patterns are better than other inorganic
patterns, some biological patterns are better than etc.....and some
intellectual patterns are better than other intellectual patterns.
Bo's interpretation of the MOQ states that something is only better than
something else if it is in a higher level. This conclusion follows from
the premises that each level is of "one value" and all patterns within a
given level are of identical quality. Bo therefore defines levels as the
value of X. When it comes to defining the intellectual level, Bo has
suggested the value of the epistemological distinction of
subjective/objective.
Pirsig's definition of the MOQ levels is made by identifying different
types of patterns. Inorganic patterns are defined as all energy and
matter that does not contain DNA. Biological patterns are defined as
those containing DNA in a self-perpetuating pattern. Social patterns are
defined as the customs and institutions of humans living in society.
Intellectual patterns are defined as abstract symbols manipulated into
patterns of thought.
Thus, Pirsig's definition of the intellectual level is such that it
contains patterns that are not based on the value of "objective
knowledge." Bo's definition excludes such patterns. Hence, the MOQ,
being such a pattern, is excluded from Bo's intellectual level
("objective" in the MOQ could not possibly refer to a form of knowledge
because it is a term reserved for inorganic and biological patterns only
and the MOQ allows the existence of many truths).
Mati said:
When we talk about defining the "Mind" or "consciousness" related to the
mind then, there seems to be distorted faith related to SOM.
Paul:
In the MOQ, mind and consciousness are just one level of patterns
created by value. Do you think the existence of thoughts depends on
faith?
Mati said:
Our "minds" idea is somewhat an illusion created by SOM. Ditch the "M"
and our "minds" are no longer this mystic apparition but rather see
ourselves as the rational reflection that is contrasted from S/O divide.
Paul:
By "mystical" do you mean mysterious? If so there's nothing mysterious
about mind, unless you start looking for it with a microscope.
Mati said:
MOQ also resolves "Mystic" subjective reality into the social and
intellect.
Paul:
Why equate subjective with mystic? I don't follow this move. How are you
using the term "mystic"?
Mati said:
"Intellect enabled SOM" sounds like "The mind enabled SOM".
Paul:
Pretty much - Quality enabled intellectual patterns which enabled SOM.
Mati said:
Then we are back to mystic reality of the mind that gets us no where.
Paul:
"Mystic reality of the mind" again, I don't get it.
Mati said:
Part of it is debunking the myth of the mind. Pirsig wrote, "There isn't
any "man independent of patterns. Man is patterns." Lila 179 I sense
that this becomes more clear with SOLAQI.
Paul:
Mind is intellectual patterns. Man is intellectual, social, biological
and inorganic patterns. SOLAQI isn't required to understand this.
Mati said:
One of the beliefs is that SOLAQI is seen as ugly and confining. I see
it as liberating to understand ourselves as we are, no more no less. S/O
reality provides for the distinct mirror to see who we are with a sense
of dignity and honesty that SOM failed. And that is a very special
understanding.
Paul:
I'm happy for you :-) but I'm still none the wiser for this sentence.
Regards
Paul
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