From: Mati Palm-Leis (mpalm@merr.com)
Date: Sun Jan 25 2004 - 18:05:35 GMT
Paul, Bo and others
Thank you for your extensive reply in which you raise a number of
issues. Unfortunately, I have only to come to explored and come to
understand Bo's ideas over the past year, he has been working on it far
longer than that. Not to mention that he is far more articulate than I
am. It is my sincere hope that my limits on expressing my understanding
won't muddy up the waters. I will however try to share what I
understand and believe about SOLAQI yet as we all know Bo has a unique
and keen sense of understanding on the topic.
Mati previously said:
When we talk about defining the "Mind" or "consciousness" related to the
mind then, there seems to be distorted faith related to SOM.
Paul:
In the MOQ, mind and consciousness are just one level of patterns
created by value. Do you think the existence of thoughts depends on
faith?
Mati: Yes, when those thought patterns are based on the precepts of SOM.
Pirsig notes in regards to the fictitious "man", "Like 'substance' they
can be used as long as it is remembered that they're terms for
collections of patterns and not some independent primary reality of
their own." Lila 178. When we refer to the "Mind" in such a manner which
is easy to do, it leads us down the garden path back to SOM. It is also
this SOM manner that leads us to what I referred to as the mind being
the "Mystic Apparition".
Mati previously said:
MOQ also resolves "Mystic" subjective reality into the social and
intellect.
Paul:
Why equate subjective with mystic? I don't follow this move. How are you
using the term "mystic"?
Mati: Perhaps the "Mystic" subjective reality was a poor choice words to
convey what I meant. Many times in daily life I have heard the use of
the idea of the "Subjective" reality that clouds what we try to
understand as reality. I have been told something to the effect, that,
"You can't say that is real because it based on your subjective
opinion." Of course discussions on society and intellect are based on
the subjective, but that doesn't mean that they are invalid. MOQ
validates the subjective reality without trying to objectify it.
Subjective reality in SOM only seems to be valid when it is objectified,
and when it can't it be objectified it remains a "Mystic" value.
Mati previously said:
"Intellect enabled SOM" sounds like "The mind enabled SOM".
Paul:
Pretty much - Quality enabled intellectual patterns which enabled SOM.
Mati: What might be some of those intellectual patterns which enable
SOM?
Mati Previously said:
Part of it is debunking the myth of the mind. Pirsig wrote, "There isn't
any "man independent of patterns. Man is patterns." Lila 179 I sense
that this becomes more clear with SOLAQI.
Paul:
Mind is intellectual patterns. Man is intellectual, social, biological
and inorganic patterns. SOLAQI isn't required to understand this.
Mati: You are right SOLAQI isn't required to understand this, that what
we have MOQ for. SOLAQI only applies to the "Intellect" reality. But
what SOLAQI seems to do is provide a footing of defining what the
"intellect" values pattern are. Pirsig idea of Intellectual patterns
being defined as abstract symbols manipulated into patterns of thought
leaves the waters pretty muddy.
You wrote: Thus, Pirsig's definition of the intellectual level is such
that it contains patterns that are not based on the value of "objective
knowledge." Bo's definition excludes such patterns.
Mati: I will take a stab at this and it won't be pretty. Intellectual
patterns are a genuine reflection of who we are. Objective Knowledge by
"itself" does not reflect anything of who we are. Yet there are times
we use Objective Knowledge to contrast to the Subjective reality to
create that reflection. And that reflection becomes the value of
intellect.
Mati
PS. I would like to apologize for the many writing mistakes; I am
"Dysgraphic" which manifests itself in my writing of which I am unable
to completely proofread for myself. I have my good days and bad days.
Thank you for your patience on my bad days.
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