From: Paul Turner (paulj.turner@ntlworld.com)
Date: Tue Jan 27 2004 - 11:42:57 GMT
Hello David
David said:
Hard to think that objectivity means little more than intersubjective
agereement.
Paul:
Yes, "little more than" is a conclusion arrived at when the only
alternative to objective is subjective. When value enters the picture as
a third category, there is a further reason to accept realism - it's the
*best* intellectual pattern for investigating nature. From this starting
point we can say that intersubjective agreement is created by Quality
and objectivity is then created by intersubjective agreement. I think
this is an important MOQ contribution to pragmatism. Matt, I'm sure,
doesn't think it necessary and puts it down to common sense.
"The MOQ says that Quality comes first, which produces ideas, which
produce what we know as matter. The scientific community...almost
invariably presumes that matter comes first and produces ideas. However,
as if to further the confusion, the MOQ says that the idea that matter
comes first is a high quality idea!" [Lila's Child Note 67, p.214]
David said:
However, I accept realism on another basis. Not the removal of the
subjective standpoint (a very unrealistic possibility, from nowhere
there can be no view). The basis I accept realism is on that of
causality and our capacity to investigate underlying levels of
causality, e.g. that the colour green as we experience it is dependent
on the wavelength of light. And also that the world does not cease to
carry on with its activity when I close my eyes. The idea that we can
have useful knowledge depends on realism, any other idea is a bit stupid
really, despite the pragmatist fear of committing to realism.
Paul:
I would rephrase that last sentence like this - "The idea that we can
have useful knowledge [of inorganic and biological patterns] depends on
realism, any other idea is [of lower quality], despite the pragmatist
fear of committing to realism." - and agree with you, adding that, "This
knowledge is confirmed by experience in such a way as to allow the
scientist to generate a supremely high quality intellectual belief that
external objects exist. But that belief itself is still subjective."
[Lila's Child p.313]
Regards
Paul
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