From: skutvik@online.no
Date: Fri Feb 13 2004 - 08:54:02 GMT
Paul and Discussers.
On 9 Feb. as we were discussing whether Rhetorics were a social
level endeavour you cited Pirsig:
> "The identification of rta and aretê was enormously valuable,
> Phaedrus thought, because it provided a huge historical panorama in
> which the fundamental conflict between static and Dynamic Quality
> had been worked out....The resolution of this conflict in the
> Buddhist and Vedantist philosophies is one of the profound
> achievements of the human mind." [Lila p.347]
> Pirsig isn't saying that a "Quality era" to follow your
> "intellectual era" dawned in the seventies, he is suggesting that
> thousands of years ago, what he calls Quality, the Sophists called
> arête, the Hindus called rta, the Taoists called Tao, the Buddha
> called nothingness....
This I found having little to do with out debate, all in all Im' not
sure how it relates to the MOQ at all where the static levels are
supposed to cover everything. Here Pirsig speaks of the
dynamic/static relationship in general ..and yet about a historical
epoch and its people. What levels are these things played out at?
I think it belongs to some very early stage in his way towards the
MOQ before the static system was worked out. Pirsig says in the
beginning of the passage (p.386 ) "Long ago when he first
explored the idea of Quality he had reasoned ...etc." But what I
have come to believe is that Pirsig here reveals a Oriental variety
of the story he tells in ZMM
Look, Phaedrus identified his Quality with the Aretê he saw
displayed by the ancient Greeks. At that time he hadn't made the
DQ/SQ slash, but looking back, this Greek Mythos era must have
been like the one described in the Rta passage: One of gods
upholding the MORAL order of the universe. That's why he later -
in LILA - includes the Rta in the Quality=Aretê equation.
Do you see what I mean? The RT passage is Pirsig pointing to a
similar Indian-Hindu mythological past of gods etc. Now, in ZMM
it was Phaedrus' frustration over SOM that triggered his Quality
insight, thus the big question is: Was there - are there - an Hindu
"SOM" that could have caused Oriental Phaedrus to create a
Metaphysics of Rta?. In his letter Pirsig speaks of an Oriental
intellectual level arrived at at the Upanisadic times (1500-500
BC) which is definitely later than the said Myth era.
A last stab at our debate. Seen from the MOQ everything must fit
the level system and as I see it the Social era fits this Rta-Aretê-
Quality scheme perfectly. On page 386 (Bodley Head) LILA says:
"The mythos is the social culture and THE RHETORIC which the
culture must invent before philosophy becomes possible." (my
capitals)
and a little further down the page:
"The Mythos over Logos thesis agrees with the MOQ's assertion
that intellectual patterns are built up out of social patterns."
And as Intellect follows Society "philosophy" means Intellect
here. I have driven you from one stand to the next, but the more
battles I win the more adherers you seem to gain. That's OK, now
that you have Matthew (the Fallen Priest) with you I am sure to
be on the right side. ;-)
IMO
Bo
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