From: InfoPro Consulting: Mark Heyman (markheyman@infoproconsulting.com)
Date: Sun May 09 2004 - 21:09:26 BST
Hi Dave and all,
Just a note on my messaging style. If I drop someone's comment from
my response, it just means I agree and have nothing to add, not that
I'm ducking the question. This helps keep the messages shorter.
On 9 May 2004 at 12:26, David Buchanan wrote:
msh said:
I'm not sure why a small village is necessarily a higher form of
social evolution than, say, a pirate ship full of brigands. Because
it doesn't move? Because the pirates are bad guys? It's always
wrong to steal? Probably. But certainly debatable. Anyway, I get
and agree with the point; but this sort of statement supports my
contention that Pirsig sees a secondary moral hierarchy at work on
the Social/Cultural level.
dmb said:
I'd certainly agree that there are levels within levels, so to speak.
Ken Wilber paints an evolutionary hierarchy too, but with much finer
grades so Pirsig's social level would be split into 3 or 4 thinner
layers, if you will. And its seems self-evident to me that this is
the case with all levels.
msh says:
Thanks for the reference to Wilber; I'm not familiar with him.
Recommended works?
dmb said:
Surely there is a distinction to be made between an elephant and a
virus, etc.
msh says:
Well, viruses are interesting because they are neither inanimate nor
living; they require a host for a survival and are sort of "midway
between brute matter and living organism," says Wolfhard Weidel.
Let's go with a microbe, then we're definitely among the living. But,
sure, there is a distinction, just not a MORAL distinction, to the
extent that one is more valuable than another.
msh said:
Pirsig Idea Q2-2) "When the United States drafted troops for the
Civil War everyone knew that innocent people would be murdered. The
North could have permitted the slave states to become independent and
saved hundreds of thousands of lives."
Although I agree with this idea, I should point out that here, and in
idea Q2-3 below, Pirsig is oversimplify the reasons for the Civil War
in order to make his point; at least, I hope the oversimplification
is deliberate. The Civil War was about freeing slaves in the same way
that America's involvement in WWII was about saving Jews. Which is
to say, not much, an ancillary benefit at best.
dmb said:
I'm a Zinn fan and all, but I think you've underestimated the
Abolitionist cause in this view.
msh says:
You're right. I'm afraid I too am guilty of oversimplification to
make my point about wars in general. And I don't want to imply that
Zinn is guilty of the same oversimplification. He sees the
abolitionist cause has having more influence than I've allowed.
Nevertheless, skepticism is warranted whenever someone is advocating
violence in the name of human rights.
msh said:
Pirsig Idea Q2-3) "But an evolutionary morality argues that the North
was right in pursuing that war because a nation is a higher form of
evolution than a human body, and the principle of human equality is
an even higher form than a nation. John Brown's truth was never an
abstraction. It still keeps marching on." (Lila, 13)
Nothing much to disagree with here. I'll buy it off the rack. I
particularly like the phrase "the principle of human equality is an
even higher form [of moral evolution] than a nation." I mentioned
this in my previous post. Working within the MOQ, such words become
heavy with meaning: If a nation violates, suppresses, destroys, or
in any other way impedes or diminishes even a single person's chance
for equality with his fellow beings, it is MORALLY IMPERATIVE that
that corrupted nation be destroyed. Tough but true words, I think.
dmb said
Well, yes, the corrupted elements should be eliminated and we ought
to do whatever we can to exercise and protect these rights. But let's
not make perfection the enemy of the pretty darn good, you know?
msh says:
Yes. Good point. As long as the forces perpetuating the pretty darn
good cultivate the open flow and interaction of ideas, even ideas
that are critical of the pretty darn good. In fact, ESPECIALLY when
ideas are critical. Otherwise, stagnation and perpetual SQ. A
society truly seeking the highest moral level will never suffer
destruction.
dmb continued:
I think the USA, for example, has been trying to live up to those
ideals with only limited success, but its not so limited as to
warrant destruction, simply further improvement.
msh says:
Well, this depends on what you mean by USA. If you mean the general
population of the USA, people who have worked hard for all the social
progress that's been attained, then I agree. But the US government,
as the shadow cast by big business and power elites (to paraphrase
Dewey) has shown little interest in living up to those ideals,
particularly as they might be applied in foreign affairs.
dmb said:
But I think you're quite right about the depth of meaning these terms
acquire in the MOQ. There, human rights are not just a great
sentiment, a nice idea or protection from political oppression, it is
the mechanism that protects intellectual evolution, that supports the
ongoing direction of life itself.
msh says:
Thanks. Nicely put.
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