From: Joe (jhmau@sbcglobal.net)
Date: Mon May 10 2004 - 18:42:51 BST
On 07 May 2004 Mark H writes:
Hi Mark, and all,
Mark: 09-04: All of nature consists of four moral levels of SQ patterns or
values, with DQ mixing the pot at all levels. In order of decreasing
morality, along with representative patterns, these moral levels are:
joe: IMO in your statement there is no indication of the metaphysics from
which it is derived, and DQ is simply one more added element.
In Pirsig's statement the metaphysics is invoked and then a further division
of the metaphysics is proposed. This is not just degeneracy from a mystic
standpoint, it is degeneracy from a metaphysical standpoint. DQ and SQ are
mystical. When Bodvar Skutvik tried to describe Intellectual SQ as s/o
(subject/ object) this was metaphysical degeneracy.
joe quoted:
So what Phaedrus was saying was that not just life, but everything,
is an ethical activity. It is nothing else. When inorganic patterns
of reality create life the Metaphysics of Quality postulates that
the've done so because it's 'better' and that this definition of
'betterness'--this beginning response to Dynamic Quality-- is an
elementary unit of ethics upon which all right and wrong can be
based. LILA-12
msh says:
I think this quote is crucial to an understanding of the MOQ. Still
it feels very weird to say that inorganic patterns created life. Non-
living things CREATED. Not only did they do something creative, they had a
REASON for it! I could use some help here.
joe: Mark Maxwell in The Edge of Chaos on moq.org explores preferences and
cohesion in evolution. I accept evolution. A mystical 3 in 1 description
can be found from Catholic tradition on the feast of Trinity Sunday. Two
Russian writers of the last century George Gurdjieff, and Peter Ouspensky
and their followers propose a Carbon Nitrogen Oxygen make-up of Hydrogen.
Three forces and one manifestation. I am not conversant with Eastern
formulations of the Tao, Zen.
joe said:
IMO this is Pirsig's definition of morality. 'Betterness' is a
mystical acceptance of the undefined.
msh asks:
This isn't derived from the LILA-12 passage you quoted above, is it? If so,
I don't see it. Sounds more like his "undefined" definition
of Quality from way back in ZMM. Yes?
joe: I did derive this from LILA-12 as metaphysical degeneracy. The
mystical is expanded to 'betterness' in Quality, and hence to the moral
orders.
Joe Maurer
> Hi Joe, et al, thanks for responding.
>
> msh said
> All of nature consists of four moral levels of SQ patterns or values,
> with DQ mixing the pot at all levels. In order of decreasing
> morality, along with representative patterns, these moral levels are:
>
> joe said:
> Writing a metaphysics is degenerate. LILA-5
>
> msh says:
> True enough, from the standpoint of the mystic. Reality, DQ, is
> degraded the instant you try to define it. Like trapping a wriggling
> bug in resin, the dynamic becomes static and impure. But I like
> Pirsig's gumption when he says he's gonna write one anyway, because
> it's interesting. Life is unavoidably impure. "Getting drunk and
> picking up bar-ladies and writing metaphysics is a part of life."
>
>
> joe quoted:
> This high country passage through the Metaphysics of Quality allowed
> entry to another valley of thought in which the facts of life get a
> much richer interpretation. The valley spreads out into a huge
> fertile plain of understanding.
>
> In this plain of understanding static patterns of value are divided
> into four systems: inorganic patterns, biological patterns, social
> ppatterns and intellectual patterns LILA-12
>
> joe said:
> IMO this is an example of metaphysical degeneracy.
>
> msh asks:
> In a different sense than what I describe above? If so, can you
> explain more of what you mean?
>
>
> joe quoted:
> So what Phaedrus was saying was that not just life, but everything,
> is an ethical activity. It is nothing else. When inorganic paterns
> of reality create life the Metaphysics of Quality postulates that
> the've done so because it's 'better' and that this definition of
> 'betterness'--this beginning response to Dynamic Quality-- is an
> elementary unit of ethics upon which all right and wrong can be
> based. LILA-12
>
> msh says:
> I think this quote is crucial to an understanding of the MOQ. Still
> it feels very weird to say that inorganic patterns created life. Non-
> living things CREATED. Not only did they do something creative, they
> had a REASON for it! I could use some help here.
>
> joe said:
> IMO this is Pirsig's definition of morality. 'Betterness' is a
> mystical acceptance of the undefined.
>
> msh asks:
> This isn't derived from the LILA-12 passage you quoted above, is it?
> If so, I don't see it. Sounds more like his "undefined" definition
> of Quality from way back in ZMM. Yes?
>
> joe said:
> IMO the static formulation you have derived from reading LILA-13
> could be prefaced by a note that 'moral' is a degenerate latching of
> 'betterness'. The static is always interpreted in terms of the
> dynamic. The evolution of the hierarchy determines the morals.
>
> msh says:
> I think this will make an excellent preface.
>
> Thanks again,
> Mark Steven Heyman
> --
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>
>
> "Thought is only a flash between two long nights, but this flash is
> everything." -- Henri Poincare'
>
>
>
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