From: InfoPro Consulting: Mark Heyman (markheyman@infoproconsulting.com)
Date: Tue May 11 2004 - 23:29:13 BST
Hi Joe, thanks.
Mark: 09-04: All of nature consists of four moral levels of SQ
patterns or values, with DQ mixing the pot at all levels. In order
of decreasing morality, along with representative patterns, these
moral levels are:
joe said:
IMO in your statement there is no indication of the metaphysics from
which it is derived, and DQ is simply one more added element.
In Pirsig's statement the metaphysics is invoked and then a further
division of the metaphysics is proposed. This is not just degeneracy
from a mystic standpoint, it is degeneracy from a metaphysical
standpoint. DQ and SQ are mystical. When Bodvar Skutvik tried to
describe Intellectual SQ as s/o (subject/ object) this was
metaphysical degeneracy.
msh says:
I understand. IYO, my admittedly concise but inadequate
formulation of morality in the MOQ should be prefaced by
DQ is reality. Nature is manifest DQ. All of nature is blah, blah,
blah....Yes?
joe quoted:
So what Phaedrus was saying was that not just life, but everything,
is an ethical activity. It is nothing else. When inorganic patterns
of reality create life the Metaphysics of Quality postulates that
the've done so because it's 'better' and that this definition of
'betterness'--this beginning response to Dynamic Quality-- is an
elementary unit of ethics upon which all right and wrong can be
based. LILA-12
msh says:
I think this quote is crucial to an understanding of the MOQ. Still
it feels very weird to say that inorganic patterns created life. Non-
living things CREATED. Not only did they do something creative, they
had a REASON for it! I could use some help here.
joe: Mark Maxwell in The Edge of Chaos on moq.org explores
preferences and cohesion in evolution. I accept evolution. A
mystical 3 in 1 description can be found from Catholic tradition on
the feast of Trinity Sunday. Two Russian writers of the last century
George Gurdjieff, and Peter Ouspensky and their followers propose a
Carbon Nitrogen Oxygen make-up of Hydrogen. Three forces and one
manifestation. I am not conversant with Eastern
formulations of the Tao, Zen.
msh:
Thanks for the references.
joe said:
IMO this is Pirsig's definition of morality. 'Betterness' is a
mystical acceptance of the undefined.
msh asked:
This isn't derived from the LILA-12 passage you quoted above, is it?
If so, I don't see it. Sounds more like his "undefined" definition
of Quality from way back in ZMM. Yes?
joe answered:: I did derive this from LILA-12 as metaphysical
degeneracy. The mystical is expanded to 'betterness' in Quality, and
hence to the moral orders.
msh says:
Still don't see it, from LILA-12 alone. Lemme think about it.
Thanks,
Mark Steven Heyman
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