From: Valuemetaphysics@aol.com
Date: Wed Jun 02 2004 - 20:42:03 BST
Hi Mark,
>JM:
>Does anyone care to comment on the time component of patterns, how they
>ontologically continue the past into the future?
>Mark 2-6-04: That's a blasted good question. Time is a pattern.
I hadn't been thinking of time as a pattern, actually. Maybe an Hour or a
Year is a pattern, but time itself? I'm not sure how to figure that. Time
is sort of created by patterns repeating themselves forward into the future.
I don't know, that adds a confusing element to what I was getting at.
Mark 2-6-04: Hi Johnny, It's OK. I understand your question.
Patterns emerge from the event stream - DQ (Subjects, Objects, Data, Values).
Patterns also evolve towards DQ (Lila). The MOQ's ethical system is based
upon this evolution of static patterns.
If we equate temporal motion with increase in value then time becomes neither
Objective (as a Newtonian may argue) or Subjective (as an Idealist may
argue), but an aspect of the evolution of values.
>JM:
>Also, patterns explain
>what consciousness is - it is patterns. Patterns are all that
>consciousness is conscious of, and patterns could not exist without
>consciousness to see them into the future.
>
>Mark 2-6-04: I feel you are suggesting an objective nature for time which
>acts as a backdrop to what consciousness does Johnny? "...how they
>ontologically
>continue the past into the future?"
What I mean is that this table in front of me is a pattern in that it is the
table now, it repeats to be the table now, it repeats to be the table now,
it repeats to be the table now, and so on, following the pattern. It
repeats itself and ontologically creates itself. The pattern is that it
continues to be the table, not just that is statically a pattern of a table
but might vanish in the next instant. The pattern is that it continues to
be. The pattern isn't that it has four legs and a top, that is a pattern of
tables in general, and in that same way that is the pattern of tables in
general now, the pattern of tables in general now, and so on. That pattern
repeats too. If a pattern doesn't bring itself into the future by repeating
itself from the past, then it isn't a pattern. See what I mean?
Mark 2-6-04: Yes. Johnny Moral and the table are not separate entities in the
MOQ. JM and the table are two aspect of the same event stream. There is a
relationship between you and the table.
If you take a hatchet to the table, and the table happens to be high Quality
art, do you not hurt yourself by disrupting the patterns of the table?
This hypothetical table we are contemplating has value. It may be a good
table or a table unworthy of notice? No measure of abstract clock time can relate
to these states. Abstract clock time is a fiction which is pragmatic.
>They, 'patterns' do not inhere in Time.
>Patterns inhere in coherent relationships which respond to DQ depending on
>degree of coherence, which are then construed as forming a temporal
>continuum.
I think to "inhere" means to take up time, to go from moment to moment being
in something. So yes, I do think patterns inhere in time. Relationships
inhere in time too, things in a relationship take time to relate to one
another. DQ is all about time, moving the cutting edge of the what is (SQ)
into what will be (SQ'), according to all the patterns together, the
strongest most valued patterns having the greatest strength to repeat and
reaffirm their value.
Mark 2-6-04: I feel the physicist in you is dominating your view of this
matter Johnny? Not a bad thing, but the physicist is not bothered about the
metaphysical nature of time? For the physicist time is an indispensable conceptual
tool. This tool makes technology work.
But i wish to draw your attention to yourself as an aspect of that which you
experience? If you look at our table, where is time to be found? If you look
at a clock, where is time to be found? A clock is a collection of Inorganic
patterns which are configured to behave in such a way that they appear to iterate
like the Sun. But following Heraclitus, the clock is never the same clock
twice?
The cutting edge is unpatterned. Patterns emerge in the wake of cutting edge.
When i say time is a pattern, i mean it is abstracted from the event stream.
>Consciousness is degrees of coherence, and this means degrees of SQ-SQ
>[SQ-DQ?]
>tension. Time is one such tension, but it is primarily the value of
>relationships.
>Good relationships have a high sense of coherence, and at this degree of
>value
>time can appear to stop in wonder, joy, beauty?
Yeah, but that's more a poetic observation than I am getting at. I'm just
trying to explain the way patterns of morality become reality to a
consciousness.
Mark 2-6-04: Immediate experience is of Quality. Quality is truly empirical,
science is not.
The MOQ provides us with a vocabulary with which to statically describe our
experience of values (morality), and i am trying to use that in all my
conversations in this forum.
The MOQ unites art, science and religion, so i do not feel it is
inappropriate to sound poetic.
"But thy eternal summer shall not fade Nor lose possession of that fair thou
owest; Nor shall Death brag thou wander'st in his shade, When in eternal lines
to time thou growest :So long as men can breathe or eyes can see, So long
lives this and this gives life to thee."
>Biological coherence does the same thing if you have ever been chased by a
>threat. Run away! Run away! No time here.
That's a good strong pattern!
Mark 2-6-04: Indeed!
>That's what i think anyway!
>All the best,
>Mark
Thaks for your thoughts, I'll keep musing about time as a pattern. For now
I think it is unnecessary to consider it a pattern in itself.
Johnny M
Mark 2-6-04: So my post has had no impact upon you Johnny?
All the best,
Mark
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