From: Valuemetaphysics@aol.com
Date: Thu Jun 03 2004 - 20:17:24 BST
Hi Mark,
>Mark 2-6-04: Hi Johnny, It's OK. I understand your question.
>Patterns emerge from the event stream - DQ (Subjects, Objects, Data,
>Values).
I'm saying that patterns cause the event stream. The event stream is
patterns repeating, or trying to repeat (competing as they do with other
patterns).
Mark 3-6-04: Hi Johnny, My understanding is that the event stream is
undifferentiated aesthetic continuum. Pattern emerge from this. You can read about the
event stream in SODV at the MOQ.org essay page.
>Patterns also evolve towards DQ (Lila). The MOQ's ethical system is based
>upon this evolution of static patterns.
This is a sore point with me, I think this is so much hot air, an invented
deity, and the four levels are an argument causing distraction. I don't
think there are two people who understand the levels in the same way here,
let alone can identify where DQ is so we can evolve toward there, so it's as
useless (or as good) an ethical system as any other. I think the moral
system that runs the universe is: value is in patterns repeating,
expectations being realized, and stronger, more expected patterns will
change weaker patterns.
Mark 3-6-04: I agree there are many contributors to this site who disagree.
However, if you take a close look at these people, i think it becomes clear
that they all share the common factor of preferring other metaphysical or
philosophical systems to that of the MOQ.
>If we equate temporal motion with increase in value then time becomes
>neither
>Objective (as a Newtonian may argue) or Subjective (as an Idealist may
>argue), but an aspect of the evolution of values.
I don't think this is the angle I'm going for. I appreciate you bringing
your fine ideas about time to the table, but I feel it's not going to
compliment the meal I'm cooking here. Miss Manners says it's OK to thank
you for the zinfandel, but put it into the cupboard and serve my merlot.
Mark 3-6-04: I love merlot! Nice choice. ;) I respect your wish to follow
your own ideas JM.
>>What I mean is that this table in front of me is a pattern in that it is
>>the
>>table now, it repeats to be the table now, it repeats to be the table now,
>>it repeats to be the table now, and so on, following the pattern. It
>>repeats itself and ontologically creates itself. The pattern is that it
>>continues to be the table, not just that is statically a pattern of a
>>table
>>but might vanish in the next instant. The pattern is that it continues to
>>be. The pattern isn't that it has four legs and a top, that is a pattern
>>of
>>tables in general, and in that same way that is the pattern of tables in
>>general now, the pattern of tables in general now, and so on. That
>>pattern
>>repeats too. If a pattern doesn't bring itself into the future by
>>repeating
>>itself from the past, then it isn't a pattern. See what I mean?
>
>Mark 2-6-04: Yes. Johnny Moral and the table are not separate entities in
>the
>MOQ. JM and the table are two aspect of the same event stream. There is a
>relationship between you and the table.
>If you take a hatchet to the table, and the table happens to be high
>Quality
>art, do you not hurt yourself by disrupting the patterns of the table?
>This hypothetical table we are contemplating has value. It may be a good
>table or a table unworthy of notice? No measure of abstract clock time can
>relate
>to these states. Abstract clock time is a fiction which is pragmatic.
I'm trying to talk about the continuing existence of things, from past into
future. The pattern of the table is not a pattern like a dress makers
pattern, in that it is a specification that can be used to make other
tables, and it isn't just abiding there in the table, not doing anything.
The pattern of the table is what recreates the table, as it just was, again
in the event stream. The pattern is that it stays what it was. If you
destroy the table, the pattern is destroyed. It stops repeating into the
future. The value of the pattern is how strong it is, how likely it is to
be repeated when it competes against other patterns.
Mark 3-6-04: Johnny, i feel you have made a fundamental mistake here. The
table is YOUR construction. Other cultures which do not use tables see something
else. Get it?
This can be applied to the motorcycle, and indeed it is in ZMM. A cycle may
be conceptualised in a number of different ways. One of them is best.
This notion is directly taken from Abhidharma Buddhist thinking; everything
is dharma, and these have description. But there is always disagreement about
what dharmas are; what the final list should look like.
Tat tvam asi. Thou art that. This is what i wish for you to think about
before ordering the merlot.
>Mark 2-6-04: I feel the physicist in you is dominating your view of this
>matter Johnny? Not a bad thing, but the physicist is not bothered about the
>metaphysical nature of time? For the physicist time is an indispensable
>conceptual
>tool. This tool makes technology work.
I feel I'm approaching this as a moral philosopher. I'm not trying to
explain time, I'm trying to demonstrate that patterns try to repeat
themselves into the future, that realizing expectation is where value comes
from. I feel this is the most important insight into value and morality.
>But i wish to draw your attention to yourself as an aspect of that which
>you
>experience? If you look at our table, where is time to be found?
In the table still being here.
Mark 3-6-04: It's never the same table. Quantum fluctuations support this.
>If you look
>at a clock, where is time to be found? A clock is a collection of Inorganic
>patterns which are configured to behave in such a way that they appear to
>iterate
>like the Sun. But following Heraclitus, the clock is never the same clock
>twice?
Yes, the clock is always changing, every pattern is only as strong it is
expected to continue. An expectation can never be a certainty. I do
believe certainty would stop time.
>The cutting edge is unpatterned. Patterns emerge in the wake of cutting
>edge.
>When i say time is a pattern, i mean it is abstracted from the event
>stream.
Yes, patterns emerge from the wake of the cutting edge, but they are
generally the same patterns that were there before. 99.99999% of the time,
things stay pretty much as they were from moment to moment. The table
emerged from the wake of the cutting edge just like it was, albeit a little
older, with a few fewre carbon 14 atoms or whatever. And if you had taken a
hatchet to it, then the pattern of hatchets destroying tables is stronger
than the pattern of the table staying as it was.
>Mark 2-6-04: Immediate experience is of Quality. Quality is truly
>empirical,
>science is not.
>The MOQ provides us with a vocabulary with which to statically describe our
>experience of values (morality), and i am trying to use that in all my
>conversations in this forum.
That's good. I think we should always be relating things back to MoQ
terminology, too.
>The MOQ unites art, science and religion, so i do not feel it is
>inappropriate to sound poetic.
>"But thy eternal summer shall not fade Nor lose possession of that fair
>thou
>owest; Nor shall Death brag thou wander'st in his shade, When in eternal
>lines
>to time thou growest :So long as men can breathe or eyes can see, So long
>lives this and this gives life to thee."
Yeah, but what isn't poetry? "Sounding poetic" is less poetic than just
saying what you want to say, I say. I don't know what that blurb is getting
at, is it saying anything that isn't obvious, is it showing me something? I
fell asleep after the first "thou".
>Mark 2-6-04: So my post has had no impact upon you Johnny?
MIne didn't have the desired impact on you. Yours back to me was not
helpful, because I wasn't looking for those sorts of insights. There were
insights there, certainly, but I'm trying to go somewhere with this.
Mark 3-6-04: I look forward to you developing your ideas. Interesting.
All the best,
Mark
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