From: johnny moral (johnnymoral@hotmail.com)
Date: Fri Jun 18 2004 - 20:08:40 BST
Hi Wim and Gavin,
>Dear Gavin,
>
>You asked 17 Jun 2004 19:34:37 +1000:
>'would everyone agree that the simplest and major distinction between the
>3rd and 4th levels is that the
>3rd level operates unconsciously, whereas the 4th level operates
>consciously.
>the evolution of consciousness being the point at which the 4th level broke
>from its parent 3rd level.'
>
>No. 'Consciousness' can have too many meanings to be a simple distinction
>between levels.
>
>In my version of the MoQ the 3rd level is about (non-hardwired/instinctual,
>non-motivated) behaviour and the 4th level is about motivations of actions
>and explanations of experience.
This jibes with the conclusion I came to in my last post. When you think
about what causes the motivations and explanations of the fourth level, it
is interactions of social level patterns. The social level patterns are
interactions of biological patterns, and have non-motivated explanations.
In my first response to Gav, I think I had it wrong that people can be
conscious of a wave, as the two of you have clarified. It is a question not
of consciousness of the action but of whether the motivations are formed by
relating social patterns to each other or are just to follow social patterns
themselves, without relating them to other social patterns and forming
motives.
>It can help to realize that
>non-hardwired/instinctual, non-motivated behaviour is usually unconscious,
>but it sure can be made conscious. Becoming conscious about hunger doesn't
>make it intellectual instead of biological. Neither does becoming conscious
>about status make status-seeking intellectual. Acting upon the idea that
>relieving hunger is better than fasting (or the other way round!) IS
>intellectual. So is acting upon the idea that a society held together by a
>status hierarchy and by everyone striving for a higher status is a better
>one than an egalitarian one in which other purposes predominate (or the
>other way round!). Social behaviour and intellectual action can conflict,
>even in one person! Just as biological behaviour (e.g. eating when it is
>available) can conflict with social behaviour (e.g. fasting to save food
>for
>weaker or more essential group-members like pregnant women and children).
Good points Wim
Cheers,
Johnny
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