From: Wim Nusselder (wim.nusselder@antenna.nl)
Date: Sat Jun 26 2004 - 08:11:13 BST
Dear David M. (and David B.),
You wrote 20 Jun 2004 17:24:05 +0100:
'Do you underestimate how DQ is intentionally active? Have you not wondered
how nature has been able to achieve so much apparently without conscious
intent according to the standard view?'
I don't underestimate the influence of DQ. It is marginal but essential for
evolution on all levels. I don't need the concepts of "consciousness" or
"purpose"/"intention" to explain evolution, because I use DQ instead.
You wrote 20 Jun 2004 17:27:54 +0100:
'Here is a new definition of consciousness for you: any open system that has
to make a choice between
different possibilities is conscious. Only repeating patterns are
unconscious, so that DQ is conscious and lays
down unconscious SQ in its wake. Any evidence to the contrary? This does not
mean conscious in our normal sense. A choice between possibilities at the
particle level will be less complex than at the human level.' [interpunction
changed]
Well, if you change the definition of consciousness that implies DQ, yes
than DQ is conscious and leaves unconscious SQ in its wake. I just don't see
the point of adding a new meaning to "conscious" in order to be able to use
it.
Definitions are not supported by "evidence", but by their clarifying value.
Because of the many other meanings of "conscious" using it doesn't clarify
for me.
David B. wrote 20 Jun 2004 13:23:09 -0600:
'I've wanted to visit Amsterdam for a long time. Should I ever make it over
there, Wim, would it be OK if I went with you to the grocery store? I
imagine watching you shop and pay unconsciously would be great fun. And if
its not too much to ask, could I watch you eat unconsciously too?'
I live in Haarlem and work in Amsterdam. Do visit if you're in the
Netherlands. And ... please take in my repeated statement that consciousness
isn't essential in my distinction between 3rd and 4th level patterns of
value.
In these examples 'unconscious' should be understood as 'without having to
pay attention to it'. Most probably I am thinking part of the time about MD
discussions. (-: It isn't worth watching me. You probably won't see the
difference between behaving only habitually and making some conscious
choices. Although ... my wife notices (and complains) when my mind is
wandering when we are eating together...
With friendly greetings,
Wim
MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
Mail Archives:
Aug '98 - Oct '02 - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
Nov '02 Onward - http://www.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/summary.html
MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net
To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Sat Jun 26 2004 - 10:33:05 BST