RE: MD the metaphysics of self-interest

From: Paul Turner (paul@turnerbc.co.uk)
Date: Tue Jul 13 2004 - 09:46:42 BST

  • Next message: Platt Holden: "Re: MD Maxwell's "Coherence" and the MOQ"

    Hi Platt

    Platt said:
    > Please explain how it's possible for there to be experience without an
    > experiencer. Are we into a chicken/egg problem here?

    Paul:
    This is fundamental to the MOQ, which Pirsig describes as "pure
    empiricism." Your question emanates directly from the subject-object
    metaphysical assumption that, before anything else, there has to be a
    subject capable of experiencing objects, or phenomena. The MOQ answer is
    that experience, phenomena, i.e. Quality, is the *source* of both the
    subject and the object. The experience creates the experiencer and the
    experienced!

    > > Platt previously said:
    > > It will take some doing to convince me that intellectuals aren't as
    > > self-absorbed as anybody else, if that's your point.
    > >
    > > Paul answered:
    > > No, that's not my point. You seem to have misunderstood me because
    you
    > > misunderstand the MOQ's terminology. When you say, "intellectuals,"
    you are
    > > using the word as a noun. In the MOQ, "intellectual" is used as an
    > > adjective to describe a category of static quality. "An
    intellectual," like
    > > anyone else, is composed of static patterns from all levels.
    >
    Platt said:
    > And as such is just as self-absorbed as anyone else.

    Paul:
    To the degree that they are dominated by biological and social patterns.

    Platt said:
    > But, since a PhD consists of biological-social patterns as well as
    > intellectual, he can hardly escape from those patterns can he?

    Paul:
    No, but he can be less dominated by them.

    Platt said:
    Human purpose presumes human motive which originates
    > from self-interest. Whenever someone finds satisfaction in doing
    > something, self-interest is involved.

    Paul:
    I disagree, for reasons already stated.

    Platt said:
    > Since the MOQ says ego includes all four patterns capable of
    responding to
    > DQ, it would seem "ego satisfaction" cannot be strictly limited to the
    > social level. Biological eating, for example, satisfies the ego as
    does
    > discovering a new mathematical theorem.

    Paul:
    You are mixing different definitions of "ego." There is the
    psychological definition - a synonym of the self - and there is
    self-esteem. I think if you read the Pirsig quote in the context of the
    document, you will see that he was talking about the psychological
    definition.

    Platt said:
    > We have reached the point of agreeing to disagree. We have different
    views
    > of "the whole picture."

    Paul:
    Okay.

    Thanks

    Paul

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