From: David Buchanan (DBuchanan@ClassicalRadio.org)
Date: Sat Jul 17 2004 - 22:00:38 BST
Anthony and all MOQers:
Anthony McWatt said:
Harris thought Csikszentmihalyi's ideas on flow were helpful in
understanding Dynamic Quality in everyday activities so though Mark's
writings are probably not as sophisticated as Csikszentmihalyi's to dismiss
them completely out of hand as "new age jibberish" is a little unfair
(though admittedly I do agree with David on basically everything else - MOQ
orientated). The examples of Dynamic Quality in music, sport, motorcycle
maintenance and humour that Mark has compiled in his paper are useful in
their own right.
dmb replies:
Thanks for the explanation, Doc. Csikszentmihalyi's descriptions are
perfectly clear and now I finally understand what the topic is. The altered
state of consciousness called 'flow', a state of unselfconsciousness, is
something I know both from books and from experience. The problem,
apparently, is making any sense of Maxwell's descriptions. I not only agree
with you about nearly everything, I consider you to be THEE expert on the
MOQ. (second only to Pirsig, of course.) However, I still have some
reservations about describing this altered state in Pirsigian terms....
Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi wrote:
'I called it 'flow,' because this was a metaphor several respondents gave
for how it felt when their experience was most enjoyable - it was like being
carried away by a current, everything moving smoothly without effort.'
McWatt wrote:
As noted above in Section 2.3.4., such personal experience is evident in
mathematics. The aesthetic feeling noted by mathematicians (such as Poincaré
and Dirac) may be described as an intense coherence between their repertoire
of intuitions and postulations. Thus, intellectual creativity and insight
emerge at the 'sweet spot' of coherence while, conversely, are reduced by
too much reliance on static methods. 'Genuine mathematics, then, its
methods and its concepts, by contrast with soulless calculations,
constitutes one of the finest expressions of the Human spirit.' (Gullberg,
1997, p. xxi) Indeed, it would appear that mathematics, at its best, is a
form of art.
dmb says:
These two descriptions, one calling it flow and one calling it an intense
coherence and a sweet spot, are clearly meant to refer to the same altered
state. But I find this confusing becasue the metaphors clash so badly. If
they hadn't been presented right next to each other and by the same person,
I would never have guess they were even on the same subject. 'Flow' is a
word that suggests dynamic action, constant movement and an
unpredictability, while the phrases 'intense coherence' and 'sweet spot'
both suggest precision and rigidity. Further, I do not personally experience
this altered state as anything resembling the latter metaphors and so I did
not recognize it as a description of such. And even now that I know the
intention, I have to say it still doesn't work for me.
McWatt wrote:
In the Arts, the 'sweet spot' is much evident and music is well known as a
display of ratio, proportion and harmony. I have observed in my own
experience (when visiting Liverpool's Philharmonic Hall with a philosophy
class to hear various extracts of British Classical music) that Vaughan
Williams' piece The Lark Arising produced an involuntary emotional response
in a substantial number of the class. In other words, the Quality of the
music was simply not down to just subjective opinion. I would suggest,
therefore, that Williams' The Lark Arising reflects the harmony (when
performed properly) as experienced in the Japanese arts and is why it
produces such noticeable effects. I would further speculate that these
effects are present to a lesser extent in everything we encounter (most
experiences being less harmonic than a performance of Quality music) whether
it's people, buildings, natural scenery, poems or other works of art.
dmb replies:
This falls flat for me too. Music evokes emotion. That's just normal. I've
had my mind blown and its altered my mood and there is a HUGE difference.
The experience in the museum, if it was anything other than a normal
response, the description does not convey that. The effect is a
trivializaton of the magic art can work upon us. I'm sure that its not easy
to capture such a powerful experience in words, but this is just way too
Rockwellian to be taken Zeniously, if you know what I mean. And then there's
Laurel and Hardy. I'll just bite my tounge and say, that doesn't work for
me.
McWatt wrote:
An indication that a 'sweet spot' is occurring is that it involves a degree
of dissolution between the static patterns, as notions of self are reduced
or even forgotten. The static patterns may be said to resonate in a
particular way with Dynamic Quality in which our patterns are included in
the coherence.
dmb asks:
The part about dissolution of the self is quite clear and reflects the
experience as I know it, but I wonder what you mean, exactly, by that last
sentence. In what sense can we say the static patterns "resonate in a
particular way with Dynamic Quality"? How how are our patterns "included in
the coherence"? How can we think of this as resonance and inclusion at the
same time? All of this seems suspiciously close to defining dynamic quality
and I wonder if we really know anything at all about how static and Dynamic
quality interact in any technical sense. Again, Csikszentmihalyi is very
clear, but I have some reservations about how he is translated into
Pirsigian terms. The state of engaged unselfconsciousness is very well
described by words like concentration, absorbtion and getting lost, but
"included in the coherence" seems to refer to something altogther different
and strikes me as something we could just as accurately say about a soldier
within an army or a cog within a machine.
McWatt wrote:
Csikszentmihalyi (1990, p.xiv) further notes that: 'this state of
consciousness... comes as close as anything can to what we call happiness'
where we may experience high intensity wonder and joy. An intense coherence
of static patterns may indicate the beautiful or may even approach a mystic
experience. Such may be enlightenment - an exceptional 'sweet spot' between
static quality patterns.
dmb replies:
A sweet spot BETWEEN static patterns? I just don't get that for the same
reasons I've been explaining. When I think of "intense coherence" I think of
the Gordian knot or some other unlockable lump of tension, whereas
unselfconscious absorbtion in a challanging task is more like floating or
flight. Its like we're using air and rocks as a metaphor for the same thing
and its just knot working - its aesthetically, if not philosophically,
clunky. And along the same lines....
McWatt wrote:
As evolution tends towards Dynamic Quality in the MOQ, 'sweet spots' may be
viewed as the immediate cutting pressure in the evolutionary process and are
apparent within the relationships in all the four static levels and the
relationships between them.
dmb asks:
This strikes me as quite a leap. I mean, its clear to me that excellence and
genuine creativity occur during our peak experiences and that the creativity
can then lead to evolutionary changes, but to view the sweet spots "as the
immediate cutting pressure in the evolutionary process" seems to leave a
great deal unsaid. I also wonder what you mean by asserting that this
cutting pressure is "apparent within the relationships in all the four
static levels and the relationships between them". This is so baffling to me
that I'm not disputing it. I can't do that until I know what it means. I can
vaguely see that you're connecting the experience of this altered state of
consciousness and the evolution or the cosmos in general, but I don't see
the connection. Again, it seems there are many unmentioned twists and turns
between the two.
McWatt quoted:
'Contrary to expectation, 'flow' usually happens not during relaxing moments
of leisure and entertainment, but rather when we are actively involved in a
difficult enterprise, in a task that stretches our mental and physical
abilities. Any activity can do it. Working on a challenging job, riding the
crest of a tremendous wave, and teaching one's child the letters of the
alphabet are the kinds of [Dynamic] experiences that focus our whole being
in a harmonious rush of energy, and lift us out of the [static] anxieties
and boredom that characterize so much of everyday life.'
dmb says:
This is the part I have no trouble with. In fact, a few weeks back I achived
this state several times in one day while writing posts. I was so completely
gone that I probably wouldn't even have notice my own absense if people
hadn't been knocking on the door to break the spell. I was thoroughly bummed
each time, as if I'd been jerked back down to earth from heaven. I know it.
I love it. I know what you're talking about in that sense. But I doubt if
terms like 'coherence' and 'sweet spots' do it justice. I don't see how this
is connected to the evolutionary process as Pirsig describes it. Unless its
a drag or a chore, please clue me.
Thanks,
dmb
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