From: David Morey (us@divadeus.freeserve.co.uk)
Date: Sun Jul 18 2004 - 11:14:53 BST
Hi chaps
Try a metaphor from Heidegger:
Surely we can only understand coherence if we
can establish its opposite. Try alienation.
Let's say alienation is associated with SOM.
Imagine a master craftsman nailing with a hammer
some nails into some wood. He is doing the job,
he is not aware of himself, he has no problems
to solve, their is a perfect union between the
person, hammer, nails, wood. The activity occurs
pretty thoughtlessly. The self, the objects disappear
into the activity and active state.
Then the hammer breaks. The hammering stops.
The objects appear before the craftsman, laid
out, no longer active, broken, a problem has
emerged, the coherence is gone, the craftsman is
confronted with hammner, nails, wood as a problem,
lying in the way of his project to make a table. How
can these objects (SQ patterns) be brought back into
coherence with his activity and projects? Alienation is
always derioved from such problems, from failed and
difficult projects, from SQ patterns as obstacles. When
SQ patterns fit in with our values/projects there is coherence.
Any use? Being and Time is full of these practical metaphors
and examples, if you can get through the early chapters.
regards
David M
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Buchanan" <DBuchanan@ClassicalRadio.org>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2004 10:00 PM
Subject: RE: MD Maxwell's "Coherence" and the MOQ
> Anthony and all MOQers:
>
> Anthony McWatt said:
> Harris thought Csikszentmihalyi's ideas on flow were helpful in
> understanding Dynamic Quality in everyday activities so though Mark's
> writings are probably not as sophisticated as Csikszentmihalyi's to
dismiss
> them completely out of hand as "new age jibberish" is a little unfair
> (though admittedly I do agree with David on basically everything else -
MOQ
> orientated). The examples of Dynamic Quality in music, sport, motorcycle
> maintenance and humour that Mark has compiled in his paper are useful in
> their own right.
>
> dmb replies:
> Thanks for the explanation, Doc. Csikszentmihalyi's descriptions are
> perfectly clear and now I finally understand what the topic is. The
altered
> state of consciousness called 'flow', a state of unselfconsciousness, is
> something I know both from books and from experience. The problem,
> apparently, is making any sense of Maxwell's descriptions. I not only
agree
> with you about nearly everything, I consider you to be THEE expert on the
> MOQ. (second only to Pirsig, of course.) However, I still have some
> reservations about describing this altered state in Pirsigian terms....
>
> Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi wrote:
> 'I called it 'flow,' because this was a metaphor several respondents gave
> for how it felt when their experience was most enjoyable - it was like
being
> carried away by a current, everything moving smoothly without effort.'
>
> McWatt wrote:
> As noted above in Section 2.3.4., such personal experience is evident in
> mathematics. The aesthetic feeling noted by mathematicians (such as
Poincaré
> and Dirac) may be described as an intense coherence between their
repertoire
> of intuitions and postulations. Thus, intellectual creativity and insight
> emerge at the 'sweet spot' of coherence while, conversely, are reduced by
> too much reliance on static methods. 'Genuine mathematics, then, its
> methods and its concepts, by contrast with soulless calculations,
> constitutes one of the finest expressions of the Human spirit.'
(Gullberg,
> 1997, p. xxi) Indeed, it would appear that mathematics, at its best, is a
> form of art.
>
> dmb says:
> These two descriptions, one calling it flow and one calling it an intense
> coherence and a sweet spot, are clearly meant to refer to the same altered
> state. But I find this confusing becasue the metaphors clash so badly. If
> they hadn't been presented right next to each other and by the same
person,
> I would never have guess they were even on the same subject. 'Flow' is a
> word that suggests dynamic action, constant movement and an
> unpredictability, while the phrases 'intense coherence' and 'sweet spot'
> both suggest precision and rigidity. Further, I do not personally
experience
> this altered state as anything resembling the latter metaphors and so I
did
> not recognize it as a description of such. And even now that I know the
> intention, I have to say it still doesn't work for me.
>
> McWatt wrote:
> In the Arts, the 'sweet spot' is much evident and music is well known as a
> display of ratio, proportion and harmony. I have observed in my own
> experience (when visiting Liverpool's Philharmonic Hall with a philosophy
> class to hear various extracts of British Classical music) that Vaughan
> Williams' piece The Lark Arising produced an involuntary emotional
response
> in a substantial number of the class. In other words, the Quality of the
> music was simply not down to just subjective opinion. I would suggest,
> therefore, that Williams' The Lark Arising reflects the harmony (when
> performed properly) as experienced in the Japanese arts and is why it
> produces such noticeable effects. I would further speculate that these
> effects are present to a lesser extent in everything we encounter (most
> experiences being less harmonic than a performance of Quality music)
whether
> it's people, buildings, natural scenery, poems or other works of art.
>
> dmb replies:
> This falls flat for me too. Music evokes emotion. That's just normal. I've
> had my mind blown and its altered my mood and there is a HUGE difference.
> The experience in the museum, if it was anything other than a normal
> response, the description does not convey that. The effect is a
> trivializaton of the magic art can work upon us. I'm sure that its not
easy
> to capture such a powerful experience in words, but this is just way too
> Rockwellian to be taken Zeniously, if you know what I mean. And then
there's
> Laurel and Hardy. I'll just bite my tounge and say, that doesn't work for
> me.
>
> McWatt wrote:
> An indication that a 'sweet spot' is occurring is that it involves a
degree
> of dissolution between the static patterns, as notions of self are reduced
> or even forgotten. The static patterns may be said to resonate in a
> particular way with Dynamic Quality in which our patterns are included in
> the coherence.
>
> dmb asks:
> The part about dissolution of the self is quite clear and reflects the
> experience as I know it, but I wonder what you mean, exactly, by that last
> sentence. In what sense can we say the static patterns "resonate in a
> particular way with Dynamic Quality"? How how are our patterns "included
in
> the coherence"? How can we think of this as resonance and inclusion at the
> same time? All of this seems suspiciously close to defining dynamic
quality
> and I wonder if we really know anything at all about how static and
Dynamic
> quality interact in any technical sense. Again, Csikszentmihalyi is very
> clear, but I have some reservations about how he is translated into
> Pirsigian terms. The state of engaged unselfconsciousness is very well
> described by words like concentration, absorbtion and getting lost, but
> "included in the coherence" seems to refer to something altogther
different
> and strikes me as something we could just as accurately say about a
soldier
> within an army or a cog within a machine.
>
> McWatt wrote:
> Csikszentmihalyi (1990, p.xiv) further notes that: 'this state of
> consciousness... comes as close as anything can to what we call happiness'
> where we may experience high intensity wonder and joy. An intense
coherence
> of static patterns may indicate the beautiful or may even approach a
mystic
> experience. Such may be enlightenment - an exceptional 'sweet spot'
between
> static quality patterns.
>
> dmb replies:
> A sweet spot BETWEEN static patterns? I just don't get that for the same
> reasons I've been explaining. When I think of "intense coherence" I think
of
> the Gordian knot or some other unlockable lump of tension, whereas
> unselfconscious absorbtion in a challanging task is more like floating or
> flight. Its like we're using air and rocks as a metaphor for the same
thing
> and its just knot working - its aesthetically, if not philosophically,
> clunky. And along the same lines....
>
> McWatt wrote:
> As evolution tends towards Dynamic Quality in the MOQ, 'sweet spots' may
be
> viewed as the immediate cutting pressure in the evolutionary process and
are
> apparent within the relationships in all the four static levels and the
> relationships between them.
>
> dmb asks:
> This strikes me as quite a leap. I mean, its clear to me that excellence
and
> genuine creativity occur during our peak experiences and that the
creativity
> can then lead to evolutionary changes, but to view the sweet spots "as the
> immediate cutting pressure in the evolutionary process" seems to leave a
> great deal unsaid. I also wonder what you mean by asserting that this
> cutting pressure is "apparent within the relationships in all the four
> static levels and the relationships between them". This is so baffling to
me
> that I'm not disputing it. I can't do that until I know what it means. I
can
> vaguely see that you're connecting the experience of this altered state of
> consciousness and the evolution or the cosmos in general, but I don't see
> the connection. Again, it seems there are many unmentioned twists and
turns
> between the two.
>
> McWatt quoted:
> 'Contrary to expectation, 'flow' usually happens not during relaxing
moments
> of leisure and entertainment, but rather when we are actively involved in
a
> difficult enterprise, in a task that stretches our mental and physical
> abilities. Any activity can do it. Working on a challenging job, riding
the
> crest of a tremendous wave, and teaching one's child the letters of the
> alphabet are the kinds of [Dynamic] experiences that focus our whole being
> in a harmonious rush of energy, and lift us out of the [static] anxieties
> and boredom that characterize so much of everyday life.'
>
> dmb says:
> This is the part I have no trouble with. In fact, a few weeks back I
achived
> this state several times in one day while writing posts. I was so
completely
> gone that I probably wouldn't even have notice my own absense if people
> hadn't been knocking on the door to break the spell. I was thoroughly
bummed
> each time, as if I'd been jerked back down to earth from heaven. I know
it.
> I love it. I know what you're talking about in that sense. But I doubt if
> terms like 'coherence' and 'sweet spots' do it justice. I don't see how
this
> is connected to the evolutionary process as Pirsig describes it. Unless
its
> a drag or a chore, please clue me.
>
> Thanks,
> dmb
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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