From: David Buchanan (DBuchanan@ClassicalRadio.org)
Date: Sun Jul 18 2004 - 02:27:58 BST
Paul, Platt and all MOQers:
Paul said:
I think the MOQ defines .."self-interest" as static biological-social
quality - i.e. biological pleasure and satisfaction mixed with a
preoccupation with social status, ego and wealth.
Platt objected:
It will take some doing to convince me that intellectuals aren't as
self-absorbed as anybody else, if that's your point. ...Self-interest
propels all behavior don't you think, whether employees(including PhD's),
CEOs, or independent contractors?
Paul replied:
No, that's not my point. ..."An intellectual," like anyone else, is composed
of static patterns from all levels. ...My point is this - that which
motivates *anyone* to be self-absorbed with reputation, wealth, ego, status
etc. is static social quality. ...I am arguing that self-interest is
*biological-social* behaviour, not intellectual or Dynamic, and therefore
doesn't propel all behaviour. If a PhD is behaving with self-interest, then
that is biological-social behaviour.
dmb chimes in:
Hope my editing job didn't distort your intentions. I'm sure everyone will
be shocked to learn that I'm with Paul on this one. I think its pretty easy
to see that "self-interest", at least in the conventional meaning of the
term, is very well reflected in the long list of examples provided in
chapter 20...
"All the badges and trophies, all the blue ribbons, all the promotions up
the business ladder, all the elections to 'high office', all the compliments
and flattery of tea parties and cocktail parties are celebrity enhancements.
All the feuding and battling for prestige among academics and scientists,
All the offense at 'insults'. All the 'face' of the Orient. Celebrity.
Celebrity."
Yep. Smells like self-interest to me. Sounds like ego-driven stuff to me.
And even if its scientists and scholars doing the battling for prestige, it
looks like status seeking social behavior to me. And if you're wondering why
Pirsig describes these social level values as "celebrity enhancements", its
only because celebrity is something like the central feature of the social
level.
All the social level values like fame and fortune are wrapped up in the
culture of celebrity. Celebrities have it all, in terms of social level
values. As Pirsig puts it, "Celebrity is to social values as sex is to
biological patterns. Now he was getting it. This celebrity is DQ within a
static social level of evolution. It looks and feels like pure DQ for a
while, but it isn't. Sexual desire is the DQ that primitive biological
patterns once used to organize themselves. celebrity is the DQ that
primitive social patterns once used to organize themselves."
Platt asked:
Where does the MOQ say or imply that intellectual patterns offer freedom
from self-interest?
Paul answered:
It is a logical argument. Pirsig says this about social quality:
"Social quality measurements....are such things as conformity to social
custom, popularity, ego satisfaction, and 'reputation'." [MOQ Textbook] and
"Fame and fortune are huge Dynamic parameters that give society its shape
and meaning." [Lila, Ch.20] ...I argue that this is self-interest. Then, I
apply the basic MOQ principle that each level of evolution moves away from,
controls, and is often in opposition to, the "quality" that defines the
previous level - therefore providing freedom from that quality.
dmb adds to Paul's answer:
A logical argument? Paul has apparently forgotten who he's talking to.
Fortunately there is a quote from chapter 20 that should do the trick.
Pirsig doesn't just IMPLY that that intellectual patterns offer freedom from
social level values like self-interest, he tells Platt explicitly where to
go...
"But it was an assertion of the MOQ that there exists a reality beyond all
these social mirrors. THAT he HAD explored. In fact there are two levels of
reality beyond these mirrors: an intellectual reality and beyond that, a
Dynamic reality. And the MOQ says that movement upward from the social
mirrors of celebrity is a moral movement from a lower form of evolution to a
higher one. People should go that way if they can. Especially Platt."
Ok. I added that last part. Pirsig never addresses Platt by name in Lila,
but it nearly seems so. He really did write that "peopel should go that way
if they can". I swear it.
Thanks,
dmb
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