From: Paul Turner (paul@turnerbc.co.uk)
Date: Fri Jul 09 2004 - 08:55:45 BST
Hi Platt
Platt said:
Well, since you (and Pirsig) have made it clear that's there's a
distinction between Big Self and little self, and that little self is an
intellectual pattern created by Big Self, I hesitate to buy into your
premise here that there's such a thing as "self-interest" other than as
an abstract concept.
Paul:
First, I think the "self" is a concept only to the degree that I think
all static patterns are concepts - in that they are an abstraction from
experience - real but not fundamental, the same as objects.
Second, given the above, I think the MOQ defines "little self" as static
patterns from all levels and "self-interest" as static biological-social
quality - i.e. biological pleasure and satisfaction mixed with a
preoccupation with social status, ego and wealth.
Anyway, I was interested in your statement that self-interest may be
detrimental to the achievement of corporate profit, which, incidentally,
the MOQ also clearly defines as social quality. "...plain old money...,
in the MOQ, is a pure and simple index of social quality." [Pirsig,
Letter to Bo, Sept 15 2000]
It seems to me there is a contradiction here - on the one hand you wave
the flag for the freedom of the individual to pursue their own
self-interest, and on the other you trumpet the virtues of capitalism.
If we accept profit-making corporations as successful manifestations of
capitalism, along with the explanation you have given for the relative
failure of employee-owned organisations, we have a situation in which
(at least one manifestation of) capitalism is threatened...by
self-interest! Interesting.
Platt said:
Perhaps, and I throw this out only as a possibility, a CEO is more
likely to be able to recognize his participation in the Big Self and
thus, through greater recognition of arete, achieve better things for
his company.
Paul:
I agree that this is a possibility, most likely in the smaller, more
agile, enterprises, before the Dynamic gives way to the static trappings
of gumption-sapping hierarchy, internal bureaucracy, and endless layers
of middle management.
Platt said:
If, on the other hand, you view self-interest as a "real" motivating
force, then you have tapped into the drive for "betterness" that
characterizes all organisms and that, according to Pirsig, explains
evolution better than the Darwinian principle of purposeless chance.
Paul:
As above, I think it is a completely real motivating force that fits
neatly into the biological and social levels of evolution.
Platt said:
In regards to an employee-owned company, the tendency is for each
employee to look after his own interests rather than the interests of
the company as a whole. That's human nature.
Paul:
Whilst this may be so, in terms of the MOQ, this tendency is only man's
biological and social nature. The MOQ makes it clear that intellectual
patterns, and Dynamic Quality, are of a higher moral order and therefore
can offer freedom from pure self-interest. By way of analogy, eating,
killing or screwing anything we desired was once "human nature." Society
has largely succeeded in controlling these biological impulses but it
seems clear to me that intellect has not yet managed to control man's
obsession with social quality. Perhaps, until this is the dominant case,
employee-owned corporations will not be able to challenge the
traditional corporation?
Platt said:
Do owners make mistakes? Sure. Are some owners crooks? Definitely. But
employee representatives (union bosses) are no less susceptible to
criminal behavior, nor are politicians, priests, trial lawyers or any
other group you care to name.
Paul:
Ahh, the good old 'companions in guilt' defence.
Cheers
Paul
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