From: Paul Turner (paul@turnerbc.co.uk)
Date: Fri Jul 30 2004 - 13:38:17 BST
Hi Joe
Joe said:
When I see the word 'abstract' I shudder a bit. I was taught that the
mind 'abstracts' the essence from the image. The basis for SOM is the
division of existence into real existence and intentional existence,
objective subjective.
Paul:
The basis for SOM is that existence is *fundamentally* divided into
objective and subjective reality, with no explanation of how they became
separate in the first place. Whilst the MOQ denies this fundamental
division, in terms of its static levels it does not reject the division
altogether, and provides an explanation for their discreteness. The word
abstract is not an exclusively SOM word and shouldn't make anyone
shudder.
Joe said:
I do not think that Pirsig saw the intellectual level as the "mind".
Paul:
He has equated the two several times. However, given that most people
see mind as some kind of *container* of ideas, or a space in which ideas
are located, and therefore something *different from* and *other than*
the ideas themselves, it is not a good term.
In the MOQ, mind *is*the intellectual patterns, the intellectual
patterns are built out of social patterns of language and meanings,
language is built out of biological brains, vocal chords, hands and
senses, biology is built out of inorganic atoms. The patterns are all
created and changed by ongoing Dynamic Quality.
Joe said:
Is gravity the degenerate dynamic Quality of the inorganic level? If so
then gravity is divided into organic, social and intellectual gravity to
make evolution possible.
Paul:
I find this extension of the meaning of "gravity" confusing rather than
clarifying. I'm not sure why gravity would play a part in cultural
evolution.
Joe said:
Is purpose (the need to eat) the degenerate dynamic of the organic
order, existence (order) the
degenerate dynamic of the social order, and unfinished (s/o) the
degenerate dynamic of the intellectual order? This is the way I see
everything depending on everything else.
Paul:
Does "degenerate dynamic" mean the same thing as "static"?
Cheers
Paul
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