From: Valuemetaphysics@aol.com
Date: Sun Aug 01 2004 - 15:03:25 BST
Hello Horse and dmb,
Horse asked:
I'm not sure why you seem to have such a problem understanding what Mark is
saying re: Coherence. What is it that you find difficult to grasp about the
concept of Coherence as suggested by Mark?
dmb replies:
Well... ...sense.
Mark 1-8-04: Hello dmb, Thanks for all this. After trawling through your
responses i can't find one concrete example that addresses coherence in MOQ terms.
dmb:
For... ...This baffles me.
Mark 1-8-04: There is nothing baffling here dmb. The psychologist in question
is not writing from an MOQ point of view. The psychologist is a SOM trained
doctor. And yet, this SOM trained psychologist is trying to explain every day
experiences described in common language as 'flow.'
The MOQ's description of 'flow' - coherence, uses the MOQ DQ/sq division as
its starting point. The term 'mind' or terms such as, 'mental states' are
replaced by DQ/sq relationships. We then read back into the SOM psychologists
account a new metaphysical understanding. That is why i said flow supports
coherence, but you did not respond.
dmb:
Also... ...flat-out opposites.
Mark 1-8-04: You are moving away from an MOQ account here dmb: Slipping the
MOQ under the carpet!
dmb:
This... ...incoherent case.
Mark 1-8-04: You say tomAto, i say tomARTo.
dmb:
I can see... ...the issues instead?
Mark 1-8-04: The point of the dog turd analogy is this: The dog selects
without value. KW selects without value also.
[Horse]
Are you saying that words can have only one meaning and if a word has
multiple meanings it's rendered meaningless? I would have thought it perfectly
reasonable that a word can have different meanings given different contexts.
Coherence is one such word and can, quite reasonably, have different meanings
pertaining to different contexts. So far from rendering it useless it makes it more
flexible.
dmb says:
Who ever said... ...This baffles me.
Mark 1-8-04: Me thinks you protest too much dmb. If one examines carefully
all the examples in which the idiom, 'sweet spot' is found, one may draw a
direct link to the Zen master archer in Eugen Herrigel's Zen in the art of archery,
and Robert Pirsig's Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance. Coherence is
an MOQ description of this link. Of course many examples are going to be found.
All reality is described in terms of DQ/sq in the MOQ.
[David Buchanan]
Activity... ...Pirsig its about NOT doing.
[Horse]
Coherence can be both activity and stillness given different contexts. A good
example of this comes from the martial art iaido. There is achieving
coherence or the right moment in a waiting state (stillness) and achieving coherence
in an active state when the sword is drawn, the strike is made and the sword
replaced in the saya (scabbard). So stillness is coherence and activity is
coherence - both stillness and activity can be coherent, one leading to the other.
Where's the problem?
dmb says:
How do you figure "iaido"... ...our intellectual descriptions.
[Horse]
Mark appears to be saying that the interrelationof SQ (S/O) and DQ gives
instances of unity or coherence. That Mark prefers the term sq-sq tension
for DQ-SQ interrelation is neither here nor there. SQ-SQ tension is not the
same as S-O tension so you are again misinterpreting what Mark is saying.
dmb says:
This is a big... ...pointed it out.
Mark 1-8-04: Eugen Herrigel calls it, 'purposeless tension.' I begin with the
MOQ DQ/sq division and derive sq-sq tension. A better term seems to be
coherence, because other philosophers such as Whitehead have used this term before.
This is known as, 'doing philosophy' rather than philosophology.
dmb:
I really don't know... ...system is created?
Mark 1-04: We are back to Eugen Herrigel's ZAA and Robert Pirsig's ZMM. The
MOQ says DQ is doing the doing.
dmb:
These ideas not... ...Pirsig puts it.
Mark 1-8-04: You must speak from your own experience dmb. Horse does this
when he introduces iaido and yet you slap him down for doing so. You are speaking
against ZMM by doing so. This is very poor.
dmb:
They become so... ...are no parts.
Mark 1-8-04: Let's just go over this again? YOU get to see unlying unity of
Dynamic reality? What is this, 'you' that gets to do the peeking?
dmb:
This is why... ...explain them to me.
Mark 1-8-04: I don't use the term 'interrelationship.'
Eugen Herrigel uses the term, 'purposeless tension' to describe the point
where, 'it' shoots in ZAA. Robert Pirsig says the, 'it' here is DQ. I suggest
sq-sq tension as an MOQ description of 'purposeless tension' - that point where
DQ does the doing.
[Horse]
Mark is trying to extend the scope and vocabulary of the MoQ and just because
you can't (or won't?) see that that much of what he says makes a lot of sense
this doesn't lessen the validty of what he's saying.
dmb says:
It doesn't? ...of my objection.
Mark 1-8-04: Coherence is an MOQ description of 'stillness, sleep and death'.
These terms are Human analogues of something which the MOQ describes better.
dmb:
Another problem... ...guy do?
Mark 1-8-04: Get used to it.
All the best,
Mark
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