From: David Morey (us@divadeus.freeserve.co.uk)
Date: Sun Aug 01 2004 - 12:50:29 BST
Hi Johnny
Thanks I understand your position and glad
to see that you know you are trying to clarify
the relationships between levels and that this is leading
you away from what Pirsig says. I think you are at the
early stage of these ideas, good luck with them.
Arthur M Young in his 'reflective universe' has a very
interesting take on how the levels are related, I recommend
trying to get a copy. I would suggest also looking at how the levels
relate to the cosmos as w whole, think in terms of developing powers
of control and freedom and how DQ is expressed differently
at each level.
thanks
David M
----- Original Message -----
From: "johnny moral" <johnnymoral@hotmail.com>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2004 12:45 AM
Subject: Re: MD the metaphysics of free-enterprise
> Hi David,
>
> You see, I don't think that mere contemplation and study, whether written
in
> language or illustrated or mimed, or just daydreamed about, makes a new
> level above social patterns. I know that everyone here will say that I'm
> wrong about this, and I don't deny that thinking and pursuing and
developing
> a field of thought is an intellectual activity, but I think that's not the
> same thing as being a fourth level pattern.
>
> I arrive at this awkward position because I am trying to make the
> relationship of each level to the ones above and below the same kind of
> relationship.
>
> I mean, can't people contemplate things in a biological sense? Even a dog
> can study the field of cat chasing, and I'm sure they spend quite a bit of
> their brain power doing just that. "Oh boy! If I could just get outside,
I
> could chase a cat, and this time I won't let it get up the tree." They
> learn where the door is, and the best techniques to use to break free and
> chase cats, and they learn and refine the technique. I kind of agree with
> Paul that symbolic language makes a distinction and that if dogs started
> writing books about cat chasing, it would make it an intellectual pattern,
> but I don't think it is merely the writing of the book that does it, so
much
> as the fact the book is written in order for it to be read and presumably
> learned from, and that this would have an effect on dog society. It would
> be ABOUT society, saying, this is how I, Rex, believe dogs should chase
> cats, and that is what is fourth level about it. Not the complexity of
the
> subject matter, but rather if the subject matter is about social patterns.
>
> And I don't see how Cosmological Mathematics is about social patterns more
> than it is just a very elaborate social pattern itself. Is there much
> difference between learning how to set the table to mom's satisfaction and
> learning how to do CM to the professor's satisfaction?
>
> Johnny
>
>
> >From: "David Morey" <us@divadeus.freeserve.co.uk>
> >Reply-To: moq_discuss@moq.org
> >To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
> >Subject: Re: MD the metaphysics of free-enterprise
> >Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 10:25:03 +0100
> >
> >Hi all
> >
> >Is there a single person who thinks Johnny
> >has got this right?
> >
> >Yes he has/No he has not will do.
> >
> >I ask for opinion here because it just
> >comes down to how you read the MOQ.
> >I think you are making up your own stuff
> >here and it makes no sense to me.
> >Intellectual enquiry can have any level for its
> >subject I would say.
> >
> >regards
> >David M
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "johnny moral" <johnnymoral@hotmail.com>
> >To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
> >Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2004 10:06 PM
> >Subject: Re: MD the metaphysics of free-enterprise
> >
> >
> > > David M asked:
> > > >Simply: is cosmological mathematics intellectual?
> > > >What has that to do with the social level?
> > >
> > > Cosmological mathematics is contemplating things like the nature of
the
> > > universe and infinity and zero? I don't see it as intellectual by my
> > > understanding of the fourth level. It's what people are expected to
do
> > > when they get together and take mushrooms or something. They gave it
a
> > > name, which is what I expect a group of people to do when they get
> >together
> > > and talk about something enough, and they developed it and refined it
> >into
> > > language they understand, which is also what I expect people to do
when
> >they
> > > get together. So I think cosmological mathematics is social to the
> >extent
> > > that it is a field, and inorganic if you are talking about the actual
> >goings
> > > on of the cosmos.
> > >
> > > If it were a pattern that described the interaction of social
patterns,
> >like
> > > say an ideology or political ideas, I would say it was fourth level.
> >For
> > > example, the social pattern of caring for the sick interacts with the
> >social
> > > pattern of government to form an intellectual pattern of national
health
> > > care, as a concept with a life of its own.
> > >
> > > Just because the subject of cosmological mathematics seems complex and
> > > advanced, doesn't make it any different level-wise from observing that
> > > bananas grow on certain trees or that rain is wet. Would you call
those
> > > fields of study intellectual?
> > >
> > > Johnny
> > >
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