Re: MD Where does quality reside?

From: hampday@earthlink.net
Date: Wed Nov 03 2004 - 18:28:38 GMT

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    Hi Richard:

    In reply to my claim that Pirsig and the empiricists feel it necessary to
    attribute "purpose" to inert subtance, which is unreasonable, you said:

    > It is as reasonable as reason gets. The world is not run on a single
    truth.

    I'm not sure what you mean by denying that the "world runs" on a single
    truth. If ultimate reality is the cause of your world, then it represents a
    truth. A suggested ontology may be true or false; if it is true, it is the
    principle by which the world runs. I maintain that there is a prime mover
    (Primary Source) which man's finite intellect can fathom but not prove.

    In Aristotelian philosophy, the Prime Mover is the first cause of all things
    and, being first, it is not subject to change or dependent on any prior
    agent. This is what I mean by Primary Source. It is that which transcends
    existence.

    > The above has the MoQ wrong if you are insinuating that it has "no beleaf
    in a primary source". Of course it does. The > MoQ agrees with you that
    intellect is subjective and does not exist in atoms or molecules. The MoQ
    goes along with
    > the intellectual patterns that say a atomic and subatomic levels exist but
    that these are also subject to the purposiveness > of DQ. I don't see the
    problem.

    F what I understand of MOQ, it does not support a primary source. You folks
    have shown Quality to be empirical -- something requiring an observer to
    perceive. Thus, Quality (or Value) in the MOQ remains in the realm of
    Subject/Object metaphysics. I submit that only a transcendent source can be
    the progenitor of existential reality. Man is divided out of that source by
    the process of creation (evolution in space/time). Most of the postings on
    this site are attempts to struggle with that concept. The subscribers
    continue to chase their tails in an effort to resolve it. The inadequacy of
    the MOQ is quite simply that it lacks a primary source.

    Richard, if you can show me where Mr. Pirsig says he believes in a primary
    source, I'll stand corrected. So far, I've not found it.

    --ham

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    this flash is everything." -- Henri Poincare' On 2 Nov 2004 at 16:15, Richard Loggins wrote: MSH,You are wrong and Platt is right. Pirsig SURELY means that Dynamic Quality LITERALLY creates subjects and objects. He says it in several places as Platt quotes from and several more he hasn't. Pirsig ain't no poet. He'sa plain talker. Any other watered down interpertation of his writing is horribly mistaken. Pirsig's bold strokes is what gives his philosophy originality,power, and genius, even if that is not completely understood. Mark, I see a similar milk toast interpretation of Christianity coming from you - that if Jesus didn't really raise himself from the dead it woouldn't matter much to most Christions. This would be laughable if it weren't so belittling. People would abandon Christianity in a few heartbeats if this was so, and then it might morph into an organization likethe Red Cross. Its the divine that attracts people toChristianity and its the divine that attracts people to the MoQ. You need to go back and re-read his ! books with this new perspective, for you have filtered Pirsig through your ordinary glasses and come away with little of the intended message. Man, you really missed it Rich Mark Steven Heyman wrote: On 2 Nov 2004 at 16:08, Platt Holden wrote: You may if you wish consider Pirsig's description so much poetic license and thus not the way it actually happened. If so, the MOQ would be just another bedtime story. msh says: I think taking him literally in this regard belittles Pirsig's intellingence and imagination. The literal interpretation of this part of the MOQ is the bedtime story, I'm afraid. Best, Mark Steven Heyman (msh) -- InfoPro Consulting - The Professional Information Processors Custom Software Solutions for Windows, PDAs, and the Web Since 1983 Web Site: http://www.infoproconsulting.com "Thought is only a flash between two long nights, but this flash is everything." -- Henri Poincare' MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org Mail Archives: Aug '98 - Oct '02 - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/ Nov '02 Onward - http://www.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/summary.html MD Queries - To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at: http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html

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