Re: MD People and Value in the MOQ

From: Ian Glendinning (ian@psybertron.org)
Date: Tue Nov 23 2004 - 01:34:30 GMT

  • Next message: Mark Steven Heyman: "Re: MD ill gotten gains"

    Platt,

    Thanks, but don't forget that's just the me that you behold.
    I'm also the product of many other consciousnesses, including my own :-)

    Ian
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Platt Holden" <pholden@sc.rr.com>
    To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>; <owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk>
    Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2004 12:08 AM
    Subject: Re: MD People and Value in the MOQ

    > Ian, I'm happy to consider you just a product of my consciousness, no more
    > no less. :-)
    >
    > Platt
    >
    > > Platt - why use the pejorative words "figment of imagination" or
    "illusion"
    > > ie artefacts, but by definition (of the chosen words) false.
    > >
    > > What is so wrong with the more neutral idea of self as a
    > > "product of consciousness" ?
    > > (Whatever consciousness is a product of, by whatever means)
    > >
    > > I'd just like to point out that when Pirsig was Phaedrus his "self" did
    > > expire, cease to exist, it was no longer produced by "his"
    consciousness.
    > > They're coming to take me away - Ha Ha.
    > >
    > > Ian
    > >
    > > ----- Original Message -----
    > > From: "Platt Holden" <pholden@sc.rr.com>
    > > To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>; <owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk>
    > > Sent: Monday, November 22, 2004 4:28 PM
    > > Subject: Re: MD People and Value in the MOQ
    > >
    > >
    > > >
    > > > Sam said:
    > > > > > In Ann 130 above he seems (to me) to be _contrasting_ the MoQ with
    > > > > > Buddhism and science, and says that the 'I' or the 'self' is "a
    > > > > > collection of static patterns capable of apprehending DQ". In
    other
    > > > > > words, there is a "thing" (ie pattern of value) which corresponds
    to
    > > what
    > > > > > we mean by 'person'.
    > > >
    > > > > > dmb says:
    > > > > > CONTRASTING the MOQ with science and Buddhism?!? No. He's
    contrasting
    > > the
    > > > > > MOQ with Ayn Rand's Objectivism ....
    > > >
    > > > Sam:
    > > > > So, you are arguing that RMP's position (that the I is "a collection
    of
    > > > > static patterns capable of apprehending DQ") is the same as the
    > > Buddhists
    > > > > (the 'I' is an illusion), and therefore, logically, that "a
    collection
    > > of
    > > > > static patterns capable of apprehending DQ" is an illusion.
    > > > >
    > > > > Remarkable. As the man says, "you are taking an unusual position
    that
    > > may
    > > > > need some defending".
    > > >
    > > > I agree. This "self is an illusion" business makes no sense. How can
    > > > Pirsig and the Buddhists deny they exist without existing? If Pirsig
    > > > denies that when the "self" of his son died it wasn't real and had no
    > > > effect on "himself," then maybe it's time to call for the guys in the
    > > > white coats again.
    > > >
    > > > As Sam says, seems to me the people who have a lot of explaining to do
    > > > are those who claim self is figment of imagination, like unicorns,
    > > > fairies and ghosts.
    > > >
    > > > Platt
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
    > > > Mail Archives:
    > > > Aug '98 - Oct '02 - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
    > > > Nov '02 Onward -
    > > http://www.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/summary.html
    > > > MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net
    > > >
    > > > To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
    > > > http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
    > > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
    > > Mail Archives:
    > > Aug '98 - Oct '02 - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
    > > Nov '02 Onward -
    http://www.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/summary.html
    > > MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net
    > >
    > > To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
    > > http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
    > >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
    > Mail Archives:
    > Aug '98 - Oct '02 - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
    > Nov '02 Onward -
    http://www.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/summary.html
    > MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net
    >
    > To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
    > http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
    >

    MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
    Mail Archives:
    Aug '98 - Oct '02 - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
    Nov '02 Onward - http://www.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/summary.html
    MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net

    To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
    http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html

    This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Tue Nov 23 2004 - 02:27:08 GMT