From: Platt Holden (pholden@sc.rr.com)
Date: Fri Jan 28 2005 - 20:54:38 GMT
MSH:
> > msh says:
> > I'm no brujo; I claim no mystical powers whatsoever. The
> > enlightenment I speak of can be attained by anyone willing to do a
> > little reading and thinking...
> platt:
> I see. If one doesn't agree with your notion of enlightenment they
> are by definition non-readers and non-thinkers. Cognitive dissonance,
> anyone?
>
> msh says:
> No. Just that if someone rejects the conclusion of an argument
> without finding fault with the premises or the logic, then they are
> being irrational.
Nice shift in your premise from readers and thinkers to logicians. Cognitive
dissonance anyone?
> BTW, your use of the phrase "cognitive dissonance" throughout this
> post indicates that you don't know what it means. This is the result of
> your haste to mimic someone else's writing style, rather than provide
> meaningful rebuttal
And your use of "cognitive dissonance" is meaningful rebuttal?
> msh before:
> Every once in a while, however, someone does take the time to verify
> the crimes mentioned and, when they do, they experience an
> irreversible paradigm shift in their understanding of power in the
> world. This shift is a Quality latch-up, and when enough
> co-existent organisms have completed the shift, the species as a
> whole takes another step toward Quality.
> platt:
> How do you "verify" the crimes mentioned? Were you there?
> msh says:
> By reading and corroborating reports from people who were there, or
> hearing interviews, or reading government memos, or, sometimes,
> hearing admissions from officials responsible for the crimes. How do you
> know Custer was killed at the Little Big Horn? If you are claiming that we
> can have knowledge only of what we directly perceive, then there is little
> point in continuing this or just about any other discussion.
Permit me to clarify my question. The question is, "How do you verify that
what you or anyone witnessed was a crime?" To many settlers, Custer's
death by Indians was a crime. To many Indians, it was a justice. As
defenders of modern day terrorism say, "One's man's terrorist is another
man's freedom fighter." The issue is the definition of crime, not
eyewitness accounts. (Of course, credibility of eyewitnesses can be
challenged, as can historical documents, government memos, and admissions
of guilt by those charged with crimes.)
> platt:
> As for power in the world, I have yet to see your blueprint of a
> better world that doesn't require power.
> msh says:
> There is never a complete "blueprint" for significant social change. No
> one knew what would replace the institution of slavery, if anything. Does
> this mean we don't try to abolish slavery? We speak out against what is
> wrong, and try different ideas. This bad argument of "Whaddaya got that's
> better?" is advanced only by people who don't want things to change.
So, you duck the question. OK. I can understand why you don't want to
answer. And by the way, of course they knew what would replace slavery:
freedom.
> > msh asks:
> > What crime was committed by the people of Afghanistan and Iraq,
> > other than being in the wrong place at the wrong time? Suppose Tim
> > McVeigh hadn't been caught, but instead fled to Idaho. Would your
> > government have been justified in bombing Idaho?
> platt:
> The liberation of Afghanistan and Iraq was not to find and punish
> those who blew up the twin towers who, as you may have forgotten,
> blew themselves up in the process. So your comparison to McVeigh is a
> non sequitur. Cognitive dissonance, anyone?
> msh says:
> The one and only OFFICIAL reason for the attack on Afghanistan was to
> capture Usama Bin Laden, the perceived "mastermind" of the 9/11 attacks.
> One of the several serially offered and discounted reasons for attacking
> Iraq was Hussein's "connection" to the 9/11 terrorists.
No. The reason for liberating Afghanistan was to rid the country of Al
Queada who was responsible for the 9/11 attack and by making democracy
possible in that country, build a barrier against Al Queada's return. The
reasons for liberating Iraq were many as documented in the war resolution
approved by Congress. As one who implores us to read government documents,
for credible evidence, I'm surprised you overlook that one to find the
OFFICIAL reason. (On second thought, I'm not surprised at all given your
bias against the war.)
> The comparison is perfectly valid. So why not answer my question?
As explained, above the comparison is invalid.
> msh before:
> More generally, how does your theory of soldiers and guns apply when
> the criminals are the politicians who send the soldiers?
> platt:
> I see. The people of the U.S. who elect their leaders are not only
> stupid, but accessories to crime. Cognitive dissonance, anyone?
> msh says:
> Here you again seem to be saying that the leaders of your government
> can do no wrong, always act benevolently, commit no crimes. I'll ask
> again: If you believe this, then why do you object so vehemently to social
> assistance programs and taxation?
You make a good point. Forced redistribution of income at the point of a
gun from those who work for a living to slackers and moochers is a crime
in my book. There ought to be a constitutional law against it. More than a
waste of money (which some may consider a crime in itself) it deprives
recipients of self-esteem and leads to many unintended and socially
undesirable consequences (as previously elucidated by Joe Klein in Time).
So again, it comes down to one's definition of crime. Pirsig had something
to say about this, defining crime as the war between biological level vs
social level values. But few here seem willing to believe this accurately
reflects his view even though it is clearly explicated in Lila (like his
capitalism-socialism comparison).
Platt
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