From: max demian (oikoumenist@hotmail.com)
Date: Mon Mar 14 2005 - 21:37:03 GMT
Hello Matt, Dan, all…
I don’t really know where this string has been in the past, but I had an
idea or question after reading the last couple of posts:
Is it possible to have an event that is experienced prior immediate
mediation? What about an event that is not immediately mediated? I don’t
exactly know what I am asking here. (By using ‘event,’ I am trying to
signify what is experienced, and also to signify the rarest of rare
experiences.) But, what about an experience event that is not immediately
subverted by cultural trappings such as religious, scientific,
psychoanalytical, or any other social arrangements and their correspondent
language systems that immediately defines and categorizes experience? I am
not talking about a moment of precognition preceding all experience
thoughts. And I don’t think that I’m asking about pure experience at all.
Generally, I ascribe to the idea that all experience is mediated immediately
through past experience, already defined by culture and language, and
categorized appropriately. But what about an event experience that, instead
of being subverted by past experience, instantly subverts and mediates past
experience prior to its own mediation? Or, in other words, what about a rare
experience event that immediately mediates past experience, maybe the same
that will in turn mediate it?
Perhaps these questioned have already been answered in past posts but I
thought they might be worth seeking answers. I hope they are not too
confusing. I guess that’s what happens when you don’t really know what you
are asking.
In the spirit of Dan’s idea of second hand experience, I thought of another
instance where direct experience is even further removed. In reality T V,
not only is ‘reality’ an orchestrated reality, but also the producers choose
what ‘reality’ is shown on T V before it is even experienced by the viewer.
Thanks all,
Max
>From: "Dan Glover" <daneglover@hotmail.com>
>Reply-To: moq_discuss@moq.org
>To: moq_discuss@moq.org
>Subject: RE: MD Whither "direct," "pure," and "immediate"?
>Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 23:44:29 -0600
>
>Hello Matt
>
>Thank you for giving me a good chuckle. But really, I don't understand the
>misunderstanding on this point. Of course there is no such thing as direct
>experience in the way we perceive the world although direct experience may
>refer to something like this:
>
>The other day Marsha sent a post pertaining to the blues and a documentary
>she had just rented. I started to reply but she used HTML in her message (a
>violation of moq.org rules, btw) and it frustrated me so that I just gave
>up. But it set me to thinking. Please allow me to share...
>
>I like baseball and on some really nice summer mornings, rather than going
>to work, I'll jump a train to Chicago and be sitting in the bleachers at
>Wrigley Field drinking beer and munching a couple hotdogs in time to catch
>batting practice. The experience is much more direct than watching a game
>on tv. First of all, I don't own a tv, and second, watching tv you just get
>to see what the camera shows you. Now, being there at the ballgame might be
>called direct experience in a literary sense perhaps but philosophically it
>isn't. I'm still processing the experience through my senses, filtering it,
>ignoring most of what I experience in favor of what I deem important.
>
>In my opinion, Robert Pirsig makes this clear when he talks of how we are
>suspended in language and culture. So even though there are instances where
>Mr. Pirsig and Anthony too writes of immediate or direct expereince, I
>believe it's intended more in the sense of being at the ballgame versus
>watching it second handedly on tv. I hope this helps explain what I mean
>when I say there is no direct experience, only a rememberance of the moment
>past.
>
>Thank you for your comments,
>
>Dan
>
>>From: "Matt Kundert" <pirsigaffliction@hotmail.com>
>>Reply-To: moq_discuss@moq.org
>>To: moq_discuss@moq.org
>>Subject: MD Whither "direct," "pure," and "immediate"?
>>Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 21:55:38 -0600
>>
>>Dan,
>>
>>I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.
>>
>>Dan said:
>>Ontologically speaking, experience is never direct.
>>...
>>The MOQ begins with experience, not pure experience, just experience.
>>
>>Matt:
>>Okay, correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the distinct impression
>>that the words "direct" and "pure" were consistently used qualifiers for
>>experience throughout Pirsig's work, Northrop's work, and throughout
>>Anthony's work. And I was under the impression that some people
>>(including, for the most part, Pirsig) thought they were important, played
>>some role in the way we read Pirsig.
>>
>>In fact, I just finished my review of Anthony's essay on the forum and
>>most of it revolves around criticizing the use of these qualifiers.
>>
>>Are we suddenly giving up on these terms? If we are, I don't think we
>>should obscure the sea change that would be involved in interpreting
>>Pirsig, at least the change in the dominant opinion, particularly given
>>that much of my critique of Pirsig in the last few years has revolved
>>around these terms and I've received much animated derision over my
>>"misunderstanding" of Pirsig.
>>
>>Don't get me wrong: I hope my interpretation becomes the dominant,
>>mainstream interpretation. But I was under the impression that I was the
>>minority and offering a dissenting opinion, not the dominant ideology.
>>
>>Given that I could still be drastically wrong on any number of other
>>issues, what's up with immediate, pure, direct experience?
>>
>>Matt
>>
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